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maybe the woke was inside us all along
(lemmy.cafe)
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this post was submitted on 11 May 2024
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I know it is a meme, but males are well known for their rape habits, and a bathroom seems like the perfect place for that... So yeha, keep those divided please. Still, allow trans people to go wherever they feel comfortable. The percentage of trans people is too low to be a concern.
Genuine question: public toilets aren't typically locked. Does the fact one of the doors has a picture of a woman on it stop a determined rapist?
Even if we didn’t achieve fairness for trans people just yet, it’d be so fun if we took this logical determination of “Even if criminals break laws anyway, they can put friction on the act itself and help them be caught earlier” and push it back to the conservative topic of gun control; where they have claimed exactly the opposite.
It’s still bullshit on bathroom control because the two acts would be less than a minute apart with no likely witnesses. There’s far more demonstrable harm in gender exclusion in bathrooms.
Genuine question. In India train wagons are divided by gender. What prevents a man from going in there?
Is that division pointless? Why don't you ask females how they feel about that division.
The answer in both cases is 'cultural norms and expectations'. Something that I don't think rapists would give much of a shit about. If a man is willing to break laws to assault someone, a cultural norm would seem to be pretty low on their list of concerns.
Over here in the UK, during the noughties gender neutral bathrooms were popping up in offices everywhere. They were seen as a cool thing that good employers did. It wasn't anything to do with non-cis people demanding it, it just happened organically. It was a fairly brief trend and died out after the financial crash as costs were cut but people of all genders thought they were fine. It seemed a rare moment of sanity to me. We all piss and shit the same way so a loo has always seemed (to me) a very weird place to be designated as a woman only space, or a man only space come to that.
According to the latest census data the trans population of the UK is about 0.5% of the 16+ population with 0.1% identifying as trans men and 0.1% identifying as trans women. Thats about 45,000 people in each group, across the whole of the UK.
The UK has lost its collective shit when it's making decisions that effectively punish trans people based on such an incredibly low number of people, especially when there's literally zero indication that trans women are potential rapists or are in anyway going to negatively affect women's rights. More than half the country are cis-women/girls. How on Earth does anyone imagine 45,000 people are a threat to to 30million+? The trans women I know just want to live their lives without being made to feel like shit.
I mean, sure, in an office that would be fine. Just the professional context would prevent people from getting caught by coworkers. Plus, people know each other... Like, if Carl rapes Sharon from accounting, Sharon will likely say something about it... It's the same as in the family. People have no problems sharing the same bathroom for obvious reasons. But bathrooms in public places are different.
In fairness, it's not a picture of the woman, it's the essential restriction for men to be there multiplied by the chance that, at any time, there could be multiple women there to witness you entering the place and protecting others/describing you to the police.
I myself all for gender neutral, but the credit has to be given.
Rapists rape. Men don't.
Most rapists are men. That was my point. This is a fact in case you want to get angry at facts.
True, but saying that men has rape tendencies is extremely untrue. It's not like the overwhelming amount of men has a constant feeling that tells them to rape someone. Rapists are just bad people with the wrong combination of hormones, strength, size and madness that makes them rapists.
Just stop generalizing and instead call rapists for when they really are, bad people. Use whatever words you want to express that, but please refrain from using generalizing language.
Just some examples of "bad people" words are: idiot, asshole, cunt, dick, mad, crazy or you know rapists.
And btw, the vast majority (90%) of rapes commited against women are perpetrated by someone the victim knows. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1524838020977146
Shared public toilets could very well be safer because of the increased foot traffic. And yes the USA should really make better public toilets.
Here most stalls aren't stalls they are most often completely separated into small rooms (with or without a sink depending on layout) with no way to look over or under a door or wall. Just do that and your hypothetical problem is solved
Yeha, agreed, I wasn't trying to imply that most men do this, I was trying to say that this is mostly done by men.
So it is a sensitive matter for women, because when it comes to comparing the numbers, they are mostly victims.
I wouldn't mix them just to find out that rapes did increase because of it. I feel there's an unnecessary risk in that.
I get the feeling that if a man wanted to rape a woman a dedicated women's bathroom would be a better target.
In gender neutral bathrooms there might be another man in there instead of a woman, or a woman and a man. Also straight couples and mixed gender friends groups can go into gender neutral bathrooms together. I would say this is very likely to decrease the risk of rape crimes happening. Safety in numbers.
Personally there's been times while traveling that I wished my husband and I didn't have to separate to take bathroom breaks cuz we were at some sketchy, secluded rest stop off the highway. I would've felt safer with a gender neutral restroom in those instances.
Yeha, I think having a third gender neutral bathroom would be nice. But don't remove the sense of security some women get from women-only bathrooms.
I think most people feel comfortable with the division. I wouldn't mind going into the gender neutral to pee, but if I had to take a shit, I wouldn't want to do that next to women.
I'm definitely in favor of adding a third bathroom. I didnt mean to sound like I was advocating for replacing the standard gendered bathrooms that already exist.
I just find the arguments against public gender neutral bathrooms are often made in bad faith, but at the same time I try to be mindful that if someone experienced trauma that might be fueling how strongly they feel about the topic. Which is why I wanted to point out how gender neutral bathrooms as an option can offer safety too.
No, I'm just trying to make everyone feel safe. I know some women wouldn't feel safe in such a vulnerable space with men moving around.
The problem arises around trans people that are not perfectly "passing".
One can be a trans woman and look too male/gender neutral, and how should we treat that? We can't run a gender check on everyone who enters.
I wouldn't mind a gender neutral bathroom as long as the other alternatives are still available. That's fair.
That already takes three types of bathrooms (which is often complicated to create, let alone rebuild), potentially outs person visiting it as gender-nonconforming, and still contains in it a restriction to use bathrooms of their gender for trans people.
In my opinion, the best option is to just have cabins that have toilet, tap, and everything you may need. The corridor between cabins can be monitored, nothing special happens in there.
This protects everyone, allows everyone to have maximum comfort, doesn't introduce a problematic gendered restriction and just works.
The only downsides are a slightly lower capacity and more complex plumbing.
In the 3 bathroom scenario, I wouldn't restrict trans people to the neutral bathroom. Everyone can go to the neutral gender bathroom, or they can go to one that matches their gender identity.
Personally, I'd go to the neutral to pee and to male only to the a shit.
So the gender neutral bathroom is useless, then?
What percentage of males do you believe rape people?
Enough to be considered a problem.
So in 2022 the UK, my home, had 33m males. The same year there were 70,000 rapes.
Let’s assume these are all against women and each one committed by a different male. That means there were 70,000 rapists out of 33m people which is a percentage of males that raped people of 0.2121212121%.
Now sure we should get this to zero, but it makes your outlandish comments null and void.
I honestly don't understand your logic. I never said all males are rapists or that it was a high percentage.
I literally said whatever percentage it is, it is enough to be a problem. 70k lives ruined in a year seems like a problem to me.
How many ruined lives for this to be a concern to you?
The point is that changing this might increase the number of rapes. Marginally? Maybe, but why take that unnecessary risk? What's the point?
You know there are other people in a public bathroom, right? How often do you think rape occurs in a unisex bathroom, of all places?
Do you think women aren't getting raped in their own women-only restroom already? Even women in India and Japan get groped by men in their women only train carriage. The point is that mixing them is just going to increase the number of victims.
I guess I don’t live in a place where that happens frequently. Let me turn this around for a moment and ask you the same question you asked earlier:
This not you?
Males are well know for their rape habits? WTF.
To copy another reply. Rapists are known for their rape habits and females can be rapists too.
I honestly don’t understand your logic. If someone is willing to rape someone, do you think they wouldn’t enter a female only bathroom? Do you think it’s just opportunistic men that rape people. Like huh there a women in my bathroom now I can rape her.
If I don’t reply this evening, i would love to continue this discussion it’s just getting close to bedtime but I will continue talking this out if you want.
Yes rapists are opportunistic. What I meant to say is that males are known for being the main cause of rape, maybe the wording wasn't right because I'm not a native English speaker and I'm doing my best at communicating here. It's obvious that most males aren't rapists.
I absolutely believe it was the wording, which in hindsight is understandable if you’re not a native English speaker.
For what’s its worth your English is exceptional aside from the confusion here.
Bless ❤️
This reminds me of how females are known for their false rape accusations. Maybe men are safer this way too!
Yes.