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Forest of trees
(lemmy.ml)
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this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2024
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If China is a socialist state worth supporting then I'm a donkey with a laser dick :P But I'm more anarchistically inclined so different perspective.
I see your point though. What I'm saying is not that communist = tankie, on the contrary. I'm saying that tankies claim to be communists but spend all day parroting their favorite Russian or Chinese state propaganda because they believe everything else is clearly controlled by Obamna™ himself. They rarely actually talk about communism, they just roam Lemmy all day calling everybody who disagrees with them a liberal :D
I'm curious, where do you think so many westerners are exposed to Russian propaganda? Because there are apparently so many victims of it these days, can't turn a corner without someone decrying all these damn Russian and Chinese shill everywhere. So where do we all come from? What exactly did we get exposed to? I know this is the part where you handwave the question away with a "Heh, they got exposed to devious foreign thought on the freaking internet
" but I'm not letting you off that easy. Tell me what you think the actual specific vectors are for all this "Russian and Chinese propaganda" you see everywhere, and how it was apparently able to easily penetrate the absolute haze of American propaganda that all of us in "the west" have been force fed our entire lives.
Please account for this gaping hole in your social theory. Why so many tankies, how, and why only now?
Funny, I was just telling @Cowbee about how the tankies I see on here are insufferable & impossible to converse with.
But I'll bite. First of all, I don't appreciate the strawmen. I'm not saying that there is a lot of tankies, nor that they are here now suddenly. I'm not denying that US/Western propaganda doesn't exist, nor that it's dangerous and pervasive.
I'm just saying that I, myself, in my own experience, have seen people shilling for China or even Russia, acting like it's a fucking utopia. Russia an oligarchy, just with a different structure than most Western countries. China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil. No amount of America Bad makes China or Russia good.
In terms of propaganda sources, for example just take a look at Russia Today.
Nobody believes Russia is a Utopia.
Nobody believes the PRC is perfect, but on the right track, and especially nice in Tier 1 and 2 cities.
The CPC has over 90% support, the fact that China has a government does not mean that is "evil."
90% support makes the whole thing more suspicious to me than anything.
I'm sure a lot of the policy that the CCP has put forward are great, especially if compared to the US counterparts, but that doesn't justify violence and oppression.
True democracy is when a president has a 37% approval rating.
Alright I'm just joshing with you, but since you're an anarchist you do agree with me on the following, right?
unironically funny lmao.
Yes I do agree with you.
Why does it make you suspicious? Do you have legitimate grounds for this? Under the CPC, extreme poverty has been eliminated, and China went from being one of the poorest countries on the planet to a rising superpower in less than a century. When you look at the real, material change in people's lives in as short a timespan as this, it's understandable why they have a high approval rate.
Secondly, I don't know what you're referring to as "justification for violence and oppression."
It is. I'm not saying the number is fake. I'm saying that the CCP does not make an effort to make its government transparent and emancipate its citizens so they can form cirtical opinions. Those in power hold all the tools to keep themselves in power.
You said you don't speak Chinese.
You read this where? NYT? Radio Free Asia? Totally-Non-Governmental-Organization coincidentally lead by Atlantic Council ghouls and retired NATO generals?
On what grounds do you say the CPC does not make an effort to make its government transparent? Whole Process People's Democracy, and the general democratic processes within the PRC, require politicians to work their way up from small, local rungs until they reach the top. Secondly, the fact that you don't speak Mandarin and consider all state press to be propaganda rags does not mean that the CPC doesn't showcase transparency to its own citizens in the PRC.
Thirdly, it is a chauvanistic point of view to claim that the PRC doesn't "emancipate its own citizens" so they can "form critical opinions," frankly. This is a sinophobic point of view that claims a country of billions can't think for themselves.
Finally, the claim that "those in power have the tools to keep themselves in power" is utterly unsubstantiated. You're conjuring a view of China that isn't based on any material claims.
Listen, I'm sure you're trying to answer in good-faith, but it's clear that you're entirely unfamiliar with how the PRC works and funtions on a day to day basis. It is entirely okay to admit to not knowing much about it, taking a break from the keyboard, and reading up on concepts like Whole Process People's Democracy. I think it would benefit you greatly.
I know you're an Anarchist, but Mao has fantastic advice for this kind of subject matter:
Oppose Book Worship
I also recommend my introductory Marxism-Leninism reading list, and am happy to answer any questions you might have.
Okay fine if I have time tmrw I'll do some extra reading on WPPD. Got a good resource?
Here's an infographic showing the "bottom-up-top-down" structure of the CPC
Here's a decent video going over Whole Process People's Democracy.
Here's an infographic showing the makeup of government.
And you can always ask questions.
The CPC is supported from the bottom-up, all power at the top flows from the bottom, but policy is implemented top-down. The power invested in the top comes from below.
cheers, I'll take a look at these but also look for non government-sponsored sources
I don't think whether or not the legal structure of the political system is government funded or not makes a difference, it's literally how it exists. You can take out the positive spin and the underlying facts are the same, depending on "non-government source" you're going to run into US-sponsored propaganda (the US approved billions in spreading anti-PRC propaganda by the way).
So you don't want democracy?
What do you want then?
Widespread public support for a government is alien to the mind of the liberal
I think I haven't made myself clear, I don't think the number is made up.
If the evidence shows few people support the government, you believe it; if the evidence shows many people support the government, that itself is evidence of government threatening its people. This is an unfalsifiable position; you've just decided you don't like the government no matter what the evidence says.
The 90% figure is also from the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. Do you think they had the wool pulled over their eyes?