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[-] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 86 points 11 hours ago

Overpopulation is not a myth. 36% of the earth's mammalian biomass is Humans, only 5% is wild mammals. 71% of avian life is livestock. https://ourworldindata.org/wild-mammals-birds-biomass

Half of all "habitable land" (which includes everything except deserts, tundra, salt flats, beaches, or exposed rock) is used for agriculture. Half of all land, for agriculture. https://www.weforum.org/stories/2019/12/agriculture-habitable-land/

Industrial farming is not sustainable at the current rate and relies on either mined or petrochemical derived ammonia which supplies the nitrogen necessary for protein. Synthetic Ammonia alone feeds half the world population and requires an additional 2% of the world's power to produce.

The global ecoystem is in rapid decline.

I gave up finding appropriate sources halfway when I realized this post will just get removed eventually.

[-] potatoguy@mbin.potato-guy.space 35 points 11 hours ago

It's not the growth of ethanol (maize) and animal feed (soybeans) producing crops on the last 30 years, highly fucking inefficient and produced in the worst way possible, not even that pasture uses A LOT more land than agriculture while being a lot less energy dense, both using a lot more water than producing direct food, it's the poors.

Edit: And also, beef is the major cause for deforestation too:

the graph for deforestation causes

[-] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 17 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)
  1. It doesn't have to be one or the other, we can tackle multiple solutions simultaneously.

  2. Developing nations have proven to increase their carbon footprints over time, e.g. China, so the fact that they're the fastest growing populations on earth is a serious issue we can address with solutions such as: empower women's rights and advancing access to education and upward mobility in society. That was the same exact solution that the UN came to in their meeting in Cairo, Egypt in 1994.

EDIT: 3. less people consume less beef also

[-] potatoguy@mbin.potato-guy.space 25 points 11 hours ago

Producing beef is the most inefficient way to produce food, in both use of space and water, and energy. We don't need to impose things on people if humanity reduces its beef consumption.

If we cut beef consumption by half, literally oligarchs would not have an economic reason to deforest the Amazon, because of the price drops. But no one wants to do that.

Developing nations have proven to increase their carbon footprints over time, e.g. China, so the fact that they're the fastest growing populations on earth is a serious issue

You're conflating a lot of words, gives an example for China, while Chinas population is not growing even (or will start to diminish on some years), associating different things into the same sentence is hard to pick what exactly you're talking about, China or Africa (the last place where population growth is happening at large beyond the 2.1 fertility rate).

[-] vorpuni@tarte.nuage-libre.fr 11 points 9 hours ago

Beef is heavily subsidised either by giving money directly to the producers, or letting them get away with pollution (or deforestation in places like Brazil) and using terrible food and/or drugs for their product.

Without subsidies I'm pretty sure beef wouldn't be affordable even in rich countries.

[-] Senal@programming.dev 14 points 11 hours ago

This mix of "things that are possible/reasonable" and "things that are wildly speculative" is interesting.

Producing beef is the most inefficient way to produce food, in both use of space and water, and energy.

Reasonable/possible

We don’t need to impose things on people if humanity reduces its beef consumption.

Wild speculation / nonsensical.

This is not at all how large societies have worked, in any time period, ever.

While it might be technically true, it's missing a whole bunch of steps in the middle for it to be a practicality.

If we cut beef consumption by half, literally oligarchs would not have an economic reason to deforest the Amazon, because of the price drops. But no one wants to do that.

  • Palm Oil
  • Real Estate
  • Mineral Speculation
  • Wood

And that was just off of the top of my head.

Oligarchs gonna oligarch, removing one revenue source isn't going to suddenly kill interest in the amazon, with it's abundant resources and space.

[-] potatoguy@mbin.potato-guy.space 5 points 10 hours ago

While it might be technically true, it's missing a whole bunch of steps in the middle for it to be a practicality.

As I said in my comment:

But no one wants to do that.

And about this:

And that was just off of the top of my head.

Beef is the major factor in the amazon, by a large margin, as in my original comment. Palm Oil is not a significant part in Brazil, nor real state. Mineral is mainly in Roraima, but not as big as beef, because it's based on small operations, there are a lot of sources on this for gold mining and the local Yanomami indigenous population that fights agains this (as this is done on their land).

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[-] deranger@sh.itjust.works 12 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

What is the ideal amount of biomass for humans? Same question for agricultural land. What’s the ideal amount? I’m torn between thinking this is just how things go or maybe I’m just terribly ignorant. At some point the majority of biomass was dinosaurs or something, so what? That’s the ebb and flow of life. It wasn’t the biomass of dinosaurs that caused their extinction. How do these biomass stats indicate overpopulation?

I can’t disagree with the industrial farming and overall ecosystem points you raise but the biomass bits seem awfully arbitrary.

I’d also say feeding 50% of the world’s population for 2% of the world’s energy seems pretty damn efficient.

[-] anamethatisnt@sopuli.xyz 3 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

The whole human biomass question is difficult to me. Half of humanity doesn't have access to proper toilets. I have cheap products produced by contemporary slaves in asia. Fewer people with better conditions sounds good to me.
There was an article released this year that found 2-2.5 billion humans to be the carrying capacity of the earth. I've only read the abstract though.
https://researchnow.flinders.edu.au/en/publications/global-human-population-has-surpassed-earths-sustainable-carrying/
Open access:
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ae51aa

Berries in swedish forests go ungathered because the work pays so badly swedes refuse it and our new anti abuse laws stops the thai workers who did it for pennies earlier from coming here.
Good riddance, I say, people can gather their own blueberries and make their own jam - if the alternative is working conditions no one should have to suffer.

If the aim is to have no one live in squalor and have everyone live a luxurious, but preferably more eco friendly, western lifestyle then how many humans can the planet support without degrading over time?
How can we make 4-6 hours of daily paid work enough to live on, globally?
How can we change society to stop chasing growth and find a system that allows future generation a planet with wildlife, clean air and water and a temperature that humans can enjoy not just survive?

[-] bufalo1973@piefed.social 2 points 6 hours ago

If the benefits of a trade is on the back of the worker then it's not a trade. They should rise the price so they can pay enough.

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[-] JayDee@lemmy.world 6 points 10 hours ago

Those numbers mean nothing to refute the overpopulation as a myth. The core premise of overpopulation is that humans can no longer produce enough food to sustain its people. So mammalian biomass doesn't matter, total amount of farmable land doesn't matter, and percent of avian life does not matter.

It's never been a question of our impact on the environment. it's a question of our impact on ourselves and how much past our means we are.

How much of our farmable land is currently being used to produce non-edible crops such as maize used for fuel additive or soy used for cosmetics? How much farmable land are we sabotaging with pollution which could be cleaned up? These are more pertinent questions for this, because if we could be making more food instead of maize or soy, we could still feed our people.

[-] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 6 points 10 hours ago

The core premise of overpopulation is that humans can no longer produce enough food to sustain its people.

No, it absolutely isn't that, idk where you even got that from. The core premise is that it is unsustainable for any reason.

Producing food is one reason for evidence of current overpopulation, as I mention 50% of the world's food production is with synthetic ammonia sourced from mining and petrochem which are finite nonrenewable resources.

Another reason is that the world ecosystem sustains all life including humanity, and when it collapses the human population will collapse with it.

[-] JayDee@lemmy.world 8 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

Literally from Malthus himself. He argued that due to overpopulation we'd cause mass famines, leading to war and societal collapse. And he solidly pointed blame on developing countries overbreeding and called for population control and oven culling in those nations. All arguments directly derive from his original argument.

Because that is the only solution to overpopulation, is population control and population culling. Population too big, either start killing people or forcing couples to not have children. That's what you're arguing for every time you agree with an overpopulation argument.

The new twists of ecological destruction are also highly misplaced. You'd have to pin the blame on the places which are reproducing the most, which is not the case. The damage we do with deep sea fishing, fish farms, and meat farms is not the fault of the poor nations overbreeding - the only groups we could blame for overpopulation right now.

In reality, we'd not be causing nearly as much damage to our environment if we weren't using fossil fuels, weren't transporting a massive portion of our goods from overseas, weren't getting most of our meat from cows and other methane producers, weren't fishing in such a way that destroys the seafloor, etc. There's literally hundreds of ways I could list that we're doing which if we switched to an alternative would solve large portion of our ecological damage.

We all are carrying out these unsustainable practices, regardless of population. Those practices are the problem, not overpopulation. We could still be producing enough food with sustainable methods that don't destroy the world ecology.

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[-] DivineChaos100@hexbear.net 4 points 7 hours ago

fash seething in the comments

[-] in4apenny@lemmy.dbzer0.com -2 points 3 hours ago

Getting the top comments too.

[-] WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today 16 points 9 hours ago

Overpopulation is a social issue.

30 billion humble, kind, wise people are barely scratching tbe surface.

Even 100 million assholes is too much.

[-] GimmeUrBelt@lemmy.today 62 points 12 hours ago
[-] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 25 points 12 hours ago

It's just blatant disinformation.

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[-] sobchak@programming.dev 8 points 9 hours ago

Replace "sustainable," and the bit about profit and capitalism, with "efficient" and "corruption and un-free markets," then this is a common right-wing talking point (back when the right wing tried to engage intellectually, at least).

In my unscientific opinion, the current population is unsustainable, and there's no known ways to make it sustainable enough to support the population in the long term (I hope there will be, of course). The most sustainable framing practices are less intensive and result in less output per acre. That's just about survival, ignoring quality of life. I've heard it claimed we'd need 5 Earths for everyone on Earth to live a first-world-like lifestyle. Granted, we should drastically change our lifestyles.

Climate change will also likely lower the human population the Earth can support, and I think we will likely adopt even less sustainable practices to make up for the loss, accelerating our own demise; kicking and scratching and bringing all the ecosystems of the Earth down with us.

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[-] unemployedclaquer@sopuli.xyz 3 points 7 hours ago

What the fuck. Double all the problems, fuck you

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[-] thedeadwalking4242@lemmy.world 20 points 12 hours ago

Over population is a problem just because we occupy 10% of the land doesn't mean we should double it to 20%? Do you know how much of the earths biosphere that would continue to chew into? Even if we farm more efficiently it doesn't mean there should be more of us shitting around

[-] FiniteBanjo@feddit.online 8 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

It's also just wrong, humans use half of all habitable land for agriculture alone. Unless everybody moves to Antarctica doubling it would result in destroying literally all of nature on habitable land.

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[-] gens@programming.dev 14 points 11 hours ago

Wrong in almost every way.

[-] Etterra@discuss.online 1 points 6 hours ago

If you switch to vertical farming then the only limitation on population is based solely on the heat output generated by humans and our technology.

[-] regdog@lemmy.world 2 points 8 hours ago

Hear me out: I think that "overpopulation" exists, but only in developed countries.

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this post was submitted on 24 May 2026
549 points (88.6% liked)

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