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submitted 2 months ago by jeffw@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world
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[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 222 points 2 months ago

Pretty much anyone defending the postal worker here on the basis of what she did being "right" is missing the generalisation that must be made. If it's okay for postal workers to refuse to deliver mail containing viewpoints they disagree with, that means it's okay for bigoted postal workers to refuse to deliver mail from or to LGBT organisations. It means it would be okay for pro-life postal workers to refuse to deliver parcels containing birth control pills or flyers containing information about abortion services.

You cannot have it both ways. If you make a rule that there are cases when it is acceptable for postal workers to destroy or refuse to deliver mail, it will be used by the other side against you.

[-] thefartographer@lemm.ee 83 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I think she is a legend for what she did and I think USPS was absolutely right to fire her for it.

I hope the mail goes back to being apolitical and that she experiences a soft landing and strong launch career-wise

[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 35 points 2 months ago
[-] AbidanYre@lemmy.world 42 points 2 months ago

Then he's extra right that the USPS did nothing wrong here.

[-] Empricorn@feddit.nl 10 points 2 months ago

Well, then I hope she becomes Duchess of Canada. (I don't know how things work up there)

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[-] Elextra@literature.cafe 45 points 2 months ago

Agreed. I work in healthcare. As healthcare workers we are obligated to treat any patients regardless of their political affiliation or background. I just provided services to a guy the other day with a huge swastika tattooed on chest. Ive administered care to prisoners, bully/aggressive patients, racists, sexists, and others I would not normally would not align myself with. It does not mean i support anything my patients do or their viewpoint. You cannot have people determining on their own that they are not doing their job because x,y,z especially with more public services involved. It is a very slippery slope

You cant make exceptions for some circumstances without the effects/consequences extending to other cases for opposite side as this commenter noted. All mail legally needs to be delivered, even in Canada. Props to the postal worker for trying to stand up for what they believe but agreed they should lose their job for it.

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[-] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 40 points 2 months ago

You cannot have it both ways.

Ban the delivery of messages containing hate towards a group based on their identity.

[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

Let me try to twist this rule.

The delivery of materials informing women of abortion resources is now prohibited as this represents hate towards foetuses on the basis of their unborn status and advocates for killing them.

The delivery of materials promoting diversity in hiring and criticising the makeup of the boards of directors of large companies as being overwhelmingly white and male is now prohibited as this represents hate against white male executives.

You see, the issue is that you cannot guarantee that the person interpreting the rule you want to impose will think the same way you do.

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[-] Empricorn@feddit.nl 16 points 2 months ago

Well said. It's great she stood up for what she believes in, but aside from common-sense exceptions like trafficking/bombs, couriers can't have a say over what they deliver.

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[-] BarrelAgedBoredom@lemm.ee 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I'll bite. Treating fascist flyers and LGBTQ+ flyers as the same thing is bullshit. Acting like the only fair thing to do is treat someone refusing the LGBTQ+ flyers the same as this person refusing to spread fascist flyers is bullshit. Reasons matter and it's bullshit that society has normalized stripping the context and nuance out of situations in the name of "fairness". She shouldn't have been punished. We don't have to generalize, we've been conditioned to generalize because it reinforces the status quo. It's ridiculous that people refuse to acknowledge the threat of fascism in actionable ways because it's """"""unfair""""""

Also, it's not ok for people to refuse to deliver medication on ideological grounds for an entirely different reason than it is to refuse to disseminate fascist propaganda. Postal workers wouldn't know they're delivering abortion medication in the first place as it's sealed in (at the very least) an envelope that does not provide a description of the contents in a way that would reveal abortion medications over any other medication.

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[-] A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 59 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I understand where they are coming from, but its not their job to dictate what mail gets delivered.

and it opens the door for right wingers to do the same if they do not get serious punishment for this.

[-] rami@ani.social 15 points 2 months ago

Yeah like I agree with the thought but the mail is kinda sacred.

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[-] halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 55 points 2 months ago

As terrible as the flyers are, personal political and religious beliefs should not be enforced in any way at a workplace.

Functionally this is similar to that county clerk that refused to issue marriage certificates to same sex couples. Can't be supportive of one and not the other without being hypocritical.

[-] Evkob@lemmy.ca 31 points 2 months ago

Personally, I think refraining from distributing genocidal propaganda is pretty functionally dissimilar to being a bigot.

I don't want to come off as abrasive and I don't want to assume any ill-intent on your part, but it's fucking frustrating hearing takes like this as a trans person. Equating the refusal to participate in a hateful disinformation campaign to refusing to marry a gay couple is deifying the liberal concepts of law & order at the expense of human decency. It is not hypocrisy to support anti-fascist actions whilst denouncing fascist actions, even if they express those actions in a similar fashion. For example, I largely support Just Stop Oil's disruptive protests, whereas I would be disgusted if fascists defaced artworks by spray-painting swastikas all over. Is that hypocritical?

Again, sorry if I come on strongly in this comment, my frustrations are definitely from society at large rather than your comment, but having your right to exist being framed as a "political belief" is frankly exhausting.

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[-] stalfoss@lemm.ee 18 points 2 months ago

That’s like saying if you support gay rights protestors, you have to also support nazi protestors, or you’re being hypocritical. You’re looking at things on the wrong axis.

[-] halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yeah that's exactly correct. Protestors and counter protestors both have a right to express their views, regardless of what I think of those views. As long as they don't violate any laws in the process. That is literally one of the pillars the US is built on for instance. I don't have to agree with you to defend your right to say those things I disagree with. The right to that freedom of expression is literally the 1st Amendment in the US.

I don't know what the limits are on speech in Canada, but they're likely similar, just not as extremely biased towards protection. The US defends too much honestly.

That doesn't mean that your opinions and expressions are immune from controversy or disagreement. And speech is limited in certain circumstances, like direct threats. That's not what's happening here though.

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[-] jeffw@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago

I was thinking more about the “can’t force me to make a cake for a gay wedding” thing

[-] M500@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 months ago

As others have said it’s a government position and it’s delivering mail. I’m not sure if Canadian law, but in think that’s a pretty severe crime in the US.

What if the person didn’t want to deliver medicine because they believed that god will heal everything?

While the mail is hateful, it needs to be delivered.

Also consider that someone paid for the flyers and paid to have them mailed. So this guy is effectively robbing them of two different transactions.

To be clear, I don’t support the flyers in any way, but what the guy did was wrong.

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[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 47 points 2 months ago

Good. This is the same as a pharmacist refusing to fill a prescription due to personal beliefs. You took a job knowing what it would entail.

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[-] njm1314@lemmy.world 43 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

While I have the utmost sympathy for her, if a postal worker is picking and choosing what mail is to be delivered the entire concept of the post office becomes moot.

[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago

Yeah. I have very strong political, moral, and ethical opinions.

I'm also a government employee, and those opinions disappear when I'm performing my duties. I enforce rules I find idiotic all the damn time and let people get away with bullshit that should be illegal. They're not my rules.

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[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 11 points 2 months ago

Yep. This is part of the "Do the job" deal.

Because I'm sure we'll be up in arms if a religious Postal worker elected to not deliver mail for religious reasons.

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[-] jpreston2005@lemmy.world 39 points 2 months ago

At some point we have to recognize that these organizations are delivering blatant misinformation and hate-speech. That is, speech designed to "other" an already minority group of civilians.

These postcards accuse teachers of “pushing transgenderism” and describe gender-affirming medical care as “chemical and surgical mutilation.”

This hateful and divisive rhetoric has real effects on trans people just trying to live their lives, and one should not be forced to participate in the dissemination of said hate-speech propaganda. I'm glad that they just suspended her, and ended up paying her for the days missed after she came back.

I, for one, am sick an tired of being delivered hate-speech in the mail. Some of the republican mailers I get are littered with the same hateful misinformation. It does nothing but foment anger towards an already marginalized minority group. It's wrong, and the post office should refuse to deliver it.

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Just so people can judge for themselves...

[-] samokosik@lemmy.world 13 points 2 months ago

“God doesn’t make mistakes.” This has to be the best argument I have ever seen. Just wow… Can’t god also solve the 3x+1 problem? Would be useful.

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[-] MehBlah@lemmy.world 30 points 2 months ago

I don't disagree in therory but there is no way we can let postal workers have a say in what they can or cannot deliver. Fire them for doing it and move on.

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[-] Facebones@reddthat.com 28 points 2 months ago

I'm just here to watch people who cheered and defended the lady who wouldn't marry a gay couple suddenly care about government employees doing their job regardless of opinion.

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[-] capital@lemmy.world 24 points 2 months ago

This is hateful shit.

Unfortunately, they have the same argument as Kim Davis for not doing their duty.

They both refuse to do their duty due to moral concerns.

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[-] finitebanjo@lemmy.world 23 points 2 months ago

Tolerance may end with Intolerance, but idk how I feel about postal workers having the right to decide what does and does not get mailed.

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[-] crashfrog@sopuli.xyz 20 points 2 months ago

It’s good actually that the mail doesn’t censor based on viewpoint

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[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 18 points 2 months ago

People can refuse to bake a cake for a gay couple.

People get punished for not delivering hate mail.

Why is it so easy for hatred to do things but so hard for decency to push back?

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 16 points 2 months ago

While I sympathize… That's fair. Same as the people working in pharmacies and refusing to hand out birth control. If you have moral qualms about your job, find another job.

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[-] Soup@lemmy.cafe 14 points 2 months ago

Disgusting as it is, she has a job to perform and has no authority to determine what mail is sent. This shit needs to be stopped at the source, not by a mail carrier. Either do you job or step aside.

[-] auzy@lemmy.world 22 points 2 months ago

Whenever laws get broken, it's constantly "I was just doing my job".

The Postal office can find someone else to do that delivery.

You don't know how long they've been working there. And that directly puts their family at potential harm.

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[-] KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 2 months ago

i assume there are federal laws on delivering mail to people, considering that like. That shits important sometimes.

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this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2024
445 points (96.8% liked)

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