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submitted 10 months ago by TinyPizza@kbin.social to c/world@lemmy.world

Since October 7, more than 3,257 children have been reported killed, including at least 3,195 in Gaza, 33 in the West Bank, and 29 in Israel, according to the Ministries of Health in Gaza and Israel respectively. The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.

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[-] filister@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

So according to your logic, each one of the bombs was hitting a legitimate military target. Assuming that Hamas military wing is around 30K, and that Israel is dropping around 400 bombs every day for about 3 weeks, this means that they had hit 82.000 "military" targets over Gaza and the signal from their government is that this war would be very long and bloody war. So how many more "targeted" bombs need to be dropped to kill every one of Hamas? And is the human cost justified?

Have you ever been trapped somewhere and being a subject to heavy bombardment for weeks with no way to escape, no access to food, water, electricity or fuel? How would you feel if you are trapped with all of your family and would you consider the actions of the aggressor as just?

What are the chances that you would start passionately hate this aggressor to deliberately putting you through this, especially if they hurt or kill some of your family members? And I want an honest answer!

Because I know what it would be, there isn't a single human being that would be happy and not feel utterly miserable in this situation.

So now think is this like a good base for finding a long term peaceful solution where Jews and Arabs can live alongside each other without killing/hating themselves? What about all those kids who are currently going through all of this? Why they need to suffer, what's their guilt?

You know if you are constantly beating your child, the chances of them turning into not a decent human being are quite high. But please stop being surprised that this is the case, and stop blaming everything on them. A bit of self reflection can do miracles.

[-] mwguy@infosec.pub 2 points 10 months ago

So according to your logic, each one of the bombs was hitting a legitimate military target.

Looking at a mapping of the strikes and comparing it with Hama's tunnel network it does look like they largely line up.

Assuming that Hamas military wing is around 30K, and that Israel is dropping around 400 bombs every day for about 3 weeks, this means that they had hit 82.000 “military” targets over Gaza and the signal from their government is that this war would be very long and bloody war.

Also remember that if they're targeting underground tunnels you need a lot of ordinance to collapse a tunnel from the air. And if you're choosing to not use the biggest weapons (which even amongst conventional weapons Israel is clearly not using) you likely need multiple strikes to clear out a tunnel.

So how many more “targeted” bombs need to be dropped to kill every one of Hamas?

I don't think killing every Hamas operative is the goal. Apparently there's 30-40k fighters in Hamas' army. I think the goal is to target the support infrastructure, weapons depot, etc... necessary to train and command that army. Hamas had been largely training this army out in the open before the start of this war. And Israel had been respecting their right to have an army for self defense. Now that they started a war they're trying to take out all the targets they declined to do over the last few years.

And is the human cost justified?

Unfortunately it's an unanswerable question, as questions of moral reasoning often are.

How would you feel if you are trapped with all of your family and would you consider the actions of the aggressor as just?

Oh I'd hate it. I feel for the Gazan caught in a war zone. I don't think I'd believe the aggressor to be just. I just hope I wouldn't be blindsided enough to not realize that my side was the aggressor.

What are the chances that you would start passionately hate this aggressor to deliberately putting you through this, especially if they hurt or kill some of your family members? And I want an honest answer!

Oh high. I'm human. Just because I'd make a bad decision in the same situation doesn't make it a good decision.

So now think is this like a good base for finding a long term peaceful solution where Jews and Arabs can live alongside each other without killing/hating themselves?

Honestly, yes. Gaza has self determination, more aid than any other nation of poverty in the world, a favorable trade location, a diaspora capable of generating international remittances, a foreign border and the 1967 peace treaty borders. They can choose peace. They may not; but eventually they will choose peace or they will continue to get stomped on in wars that they start.

You know if you are constantly beating your child, the chances of them turning into not a decent human being are quite high.

Gaza isn't a child. It's a nation. It can choose it's destiny. But if it was the metaphor wouldn't be a parent/child one. It would be a peers in school one. Israel would be the quite, weird kid who hit their growth spurt early and started hitting the gym because they got picked on in elementary school by everyone. And Gaza is the last kid in Middle School who still tries to pick on that kid every recess and complains that they continue to get punched in the mouth when they cross the line. That's the more accurate metaphor.

[-] filister@lemmy.world -1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I like that you are honest, and you also seem like a reasonable human being, which is admirable. I know the situation is not black and white and that both sides are complicit to the current situation, I just think that the human cost isn't justifiable, and achieving it at any cost , which seems to be the intent of the Israelian government, even if that means sacrificing their hostages, which makes it even harder to sympathize.

I truly believe that this would only make things worse in the long term for both Arabs and Jews living in the area. And I fully expect the next government to be more far right and extreme in its measures.

And yes, the father/child was a metaphor, but as you put it can also be a school bully (Israel) and systemically bullied kid (Palestine).

And I think tunnels were first constructed to facilitate the trade between people in Palestine and the neighbouring villages and towns outside Gaza, but then were repurposed by Hamas for their war operations. I mean logically thinking of the right of free movement wasn't so tightly regulated those tunnels would have probably never been built in the first place. And if Palestinians weren't so heavily oppressed Hamas wouldn't be in power right? So in a way Hamas is the reaction of years of ill treatment of Palestinians.

In 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against Israel, Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin.

So one can argue that if this Intifada didn't occur, Hamas wouldn't exist nowadays. It was an angry reaction of desperate people (not defending here), just giving a bit of food for thoughts.

And one may also argue if Israel miraculously manage to destroy Hamas, there would be soon another group taking their place in the open vacuum so this would solve nothing in the long term. The only way to solve this problem is Israel to offer Palestine some concessions, cease fire and start treating them fairly in exchange of change of the leadership in the country and disarment of the Hamas war wing, which I don't see happening with the current government.

[-] Kashbus@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

And one may also argue if Israel miraculously manage to destroy Hamas, there would be soon another group taking their place in the open vacuum so this would solve nothing in the long term. The only way to solve this problem is Israel to offer Palestine some concessions, cease fire and start treating them fairly in exchange of change of the leadership in the country and disarment of the Hamas war wing, which I don’t see happening with the current government.

in all honesty I don't think there is any good outcome from this outside of a potential return of Fatah into Gaza

In the past Hamas was willing to work with Israel to avoid violence under the assumption that Israel would assist with Aid

However with Israel's recent actions in the West Bank over the past few years I do not believe that there will be any true lasting peace until there is a political shift in Israel's leadership

[-] filister@lemmy.world -3 points 10 months ago

I am fully with you on this!

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this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2023
675 points (90.9% liked)

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