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this post was submitted on 14 Jan 2024
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Funny, I just had a whole bunch of hexbear and ml lemmy tankies dogpile on me for, not even suggesting necessarily that Taiwan seems to desire that it be independent from China, but that if they did voice that opinion democratically, that such a thing should be respected, even if they are a flawed and imperfect capitalist society.
They all seemed to be very certain the Taiwanese people desire a kind of integration into China that would essentially make them either a puppet state or perhaps nominally democratic province.
Well, look at the results. Only 40% voted for the DPP. 60% voted against the DPP. It's just the 2 more pro-China parties got their vote split. Not so in their congress which is now mostly KMT.
So if we take the popular vote, Taiwan voted for status quo, not Independence. China's noticed that and that's why they're not doing another blockade.
But that goes against your narrative so I'll bet you downvote me and ignore the actual votes that do not support your argument.
Cool, uh, anyway, in Taiwan the President is directly elected by popular vote.
So the majority of Taiwanese voted for a President who opposes greater integration/interference/subservience to, whatever you wanna say, with or to China.
In fact this would seemingly necessarily mean that the only way this could happen along with the DPP not also winning a majority in Parliament is that a good chunk of Taiwanese support the KMT and TPP for domestic affairs, but prefer a president, who has more power and relevance specifically to foreign affairs, that opposes integration/interference/subservience with/from/to China.
But please do go on about my narrative while you are either knowingly or unknowingly misrepresenting the most fundamental basics of the situation.
40% is not a majority.
You're right, its a plurality. I misspoke.
Still doesn't change any of the rest of what I said.
Hey at least I can admit and own up to a mistake!
Also worth noting, the TPP candidate, incumbent and now former President Ken Wen-je, is in favor of the status quo with China, in terms of their governmental influence/dominion, meaning continued independent governance when it comes to sovereignty, though this does mean significant economic partnership, in uh, economic terms.
So that's actually roughly 65% of Taiwanese voting for a President that seem to not want Taiwan to become a part of China.
Which would be... a majority.
Damn near a super majority, as us filthy consumeristic and vapid Americans might say.
To actually attempt to venture into the Narrative Construction Zone, one might say that despite one major party in Taiwan with close positions and ties to the Chines Government itself, the momentum seems to be in favor of moving toward /less/ interference from/subservience to/ integration with China, especially where matters of sovereignty are concerned.
Shows how little you understand. KMT wants the status quo, TPP wants to engage China.
And at this point I am sure that when you say that you mean the status quo of Taiwan has always been a part of China.
You are wrong, but keep pushing that narrative!
See, you don't know and try to force your narrative on others. And if we actual Taiwanese people tell you no, you mansplain it to us. This is why I hate people like you.
@Joncash
If there's one here who forces narratives on others than it is you. Your comment shows little respect of others, you even offend them. You obviously do not act here in good faith.
I have stated nothing but facts. TPP wants to engage China.
https://news.yahoo.com/taiwans-opposition-says-towards-better-052635196.html
KMT wants the status quo.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/from-dove-to-hawk-kmts-transformation-and-the-quest-for-new-guardrails-in-cross-strait-relations/
Instead of refuting facts, the above poster resorted to insults. So yes, I insulted him back.
I expect you too will not refute facts but instead keep insulting me.
Engaging with China is a really broad thing to say, from the article that you posted about the TPP:
...
You said the TPP is pro-china, like the KMT, but to me it doesn't read like that at all. China wants reunification, the TPP is highly against that and is willing to fight for their freedom.
KMT isn't pro-China, nor is TPP. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said KMT is pro-status quo and TPP is pro-engagement. Only the DPP wants to completely veer away from China. There also is no evidence that TPP wants to fight for freedom. I have no idea where you are getting that from. They want diplomacy, not war. I don't know why you westerners think of everything in terms of violence. It explains a lot why there's so much violence in the US.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, that's what you said in your comment:
No evidence the TPP wants to fight to keep their freedom? From the article you linked:
And I already posted this from your article but here again:
China is the one threatening with an invasion, but it's the fault of the westerners?
Also: why so aggressive? Isn't that a bit too western for you?
Oops, I miswrote, I meant pro-engagement with China.
As to you quote, here's a more comprehensive article on Ko.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/taiwans-presidential-candidate-ko-wen-je-seeks-a-middle-ground-with-china-attracting-young-voters/ar-AA1mss2T
and here's what he thinks about the possibility of invasion.
Your quote is just saying the same thing that Xi says all the time. That a military needs to be ready for war.
Taken out of context constantly in western news. All XI and Ko is saying that we don't think there will be war, but if it comes to it we need to be prepared.
We're really pulling mansplaining out of nowhere when you don't even know their gender? Super weird.
China was using their Taiwanese propaganda group, KMT, to threaten voters prior to the election.
And this is what China's military aggression against Taiwan looked like between March 2022 and March 2023:
This is blatantly provocative and threatening.
China has been doing everything they can to manipulate the outcome of this election, and they didn't get the results they wanted so now they're whining about it, and making more threats. China is behaving like an abusive ex.
An independent public opinion poll conducted in 2022 found that 50% of Taiwanese favored independence, while only 12% favored unification and 25% preferred maintaining the status quo.
And when it came time to vote, that didn't happen. So yeah your pills are biased.
They don't even consider themselves Chinese anymore, why would they want to reunite?
I said they wanted status quo. Which we do. You people keep telling us it's about independence. It's not.
Isn't the current status quo that Taiwan is independent of China? From the Taiwan government's point of view, of course. It's pretty clear what China's POV WRT Taiwan is.
No and that's what annoys me about how people talk about Taiwan with no understanding of what's actually going on. Status quo is Taiwan and China are one, but Taiwan runs itself independently, just as Taiwan wants.
Isn't that a contradiction?
Kind of. It's basically an unfinished civil war. At this point for most Taiwanese, status quo simply means we have the freedom to do what we want and we can get advantages from China and the US for standing in the middle. Taiwanese people also know that China blusters and constantly give meaningless final warnings. No Taiwanese person believes China will ever attack.
My problem is, everytime we get into the news, there are economic consequences. Like TSMC losing business due to American sanctions. So my goal here is to try to get everyone to just leave us alone so we can live in the peace and prosperity of not being in the news.
An unfinished civil war in which the Republic of China lives on in a tiny island? Damn, must have been a real stalemate for the KMT and Communist Party.
For the record, I absolutely believe China would attack Taiwan, when they think they are ready. And you don't have to take my word for it: what of all those missiles Taiwan posseses? Are they pointed towards or away from the strait?
As for being left alone, the only reason Taiwan can live in peace and prosperity is because of its strategic semiconductor fabs and the publicity it generates. Yes, the publicity it generates puts us the forefront of global conversations and keeps Taiwan safe.
China doesn't care about TSMC, it never did, that's a US thing. China was always planning to out compete TSMC, that's what made in China 2025 was about. It's the US that panicked and tried to stop China from doing just that.
You could argue USA is trying to start a war by making China want TSMC, but recent events show China is intent on surpassing then still, regardless of what USA wants.
Unfinished civil war is an interesting take. Still, in every matter there is someone making the decisions, are there matters where the decisions are shared? Or some areas where they get made by Taiwan, while others where they get made by China?
TSMC has been a really smart move on the part of Taiwan; by out-competing everyone at a time when everyone was happy to outsource as much as possible, it's made Taiwan a critical asset to most of the world.
Still, that isn't likely to last for too long. Mainland China is already manufacturing semiconductors with older node technologies, and both the US and EU have been ramping up local foundries, so the protection TSMC brings Taiwan is likey to disappear rather sooner than later.
What your getting at is in my opinion, the core of the matter. It's really an issue of shared decisions. Each side is trying to position themselves to get the lion's share of them. The truth is, regardless of Taiwan and China call themselves one or separate, ultimately it will always be an issue of what decision each side gets to make. In many ways we see that playing out in the US/China relationship as well.
TSMC isn't really that important. Without TSMC and US interference, China would have just chugged along anyway. And we are seeing even with US interference, China's plan is to just chug along. It's the US that keeps bringing up TSMC because as you mentioned, it's a decision that's getting more and more out of US's ability to make decisions on.
Lmao no that's not the status quo of Taiwan. Or maybe I should ask you what happened to Hong Kong?
Hong Kong was returned on a lease? There's no lease in Taiwan and the Taiwanese voted how they wanted? Not sure your comparison here.
Now, if you really are Taiwanese, if China and Taiwan are one, do you really think China would let TSMC do as they please and not immediately takeover the company for SMIC? Or do you not remember what happened to Jack Ma? You think Taiwan can vote how it wants while still being part of China? Taiwan is part of China just as much as Ukraine is part of Russia.
By the way, last I checked in December when I visited my parents, rubber ducks and Winnie the Pooh aren't banned in Taiwan. I wonder about Hong Kong and its one country two systems ;)
Jack Ma is fine and is still a multi-billionaire. What about it? And rubber ducks and Winnie the Pooh are both still big sellers in China. Again, not sure your point.
That sounds like a distinction without a difference.
It walks independently, it talks independently, but "Taiwan and China are one." Uh huh.
Yup, which is exactly why the Taiwanese wants to keep the status quo and not get into conflict with China. We're already free, why stir the pot? Who cares what China says about who owns what. Now your getting it.
Hi, welcome to this community. Downvotes are not allowed here, and the main rule is to bee-nice, so no need to worry about Reddit-esque shenanigans.
Slightly off topic but, did you guys find a way to actually disable downvoting on your instance, or is this a rule enforced by moderators? Asking because we’d be interested in flipping this toggle on ours, if it exists
It's an instance setting: https://lemmy.ml/post/189500 (that bug has been fixed since).
Cool! Thanks!
Downvotes are disabled on Beehaw, we don't see them even on communities on other instances. I find it makes it a much more pleasant experience.
We also can't see the downvotes on our own comments from users on other instances, so they get the satisfaction of downvoting, but we go on not caring about it lol
not a mod but if i try to downvote, i get a message saying downvoting is disabled, and nothing goes go through. i am using liftoff so ymmv.
I'm not sure if voting for an another party can be seen inherently as voting against someone else. I suppose that's what it is but voting against seems like it would take an active part in the reason you're voting, rather than just preferring another party.
If this was such an important election and Chinese relations were the major issue on the table, why would the two pro-China parties not ally themselves? Are coalitions not a thing in Taiwan?
Psst, here's a secret, it wasn't important. The western media made it seem way more important than it was. If it was so important and war could have actually happened, then it would have already.
Note: The following is what I heard from a friend who lived there for decades. I have visited Taiwan but I don't have roots there, as such this is all I have to go on.
But as far as I'm told the drive for Status Quo is mainly because the Taiwanese people don't want to pull out the red flag. They'd love to have independence and be recognised as a state but the status quo is good enough (because it de facto offers them independence in all but name) and less likely to lead to a major war. So basically right now they already have what they want and trying to formalise it will only put more pressure on the situation.
That is correct. Taiwanese people are generally ok with the situation and have what we want so don't stir the pot. Also, I realize in that post I wrote pro-China. That's incorrect, both the TPP and KMT are pro-negotiation with China which I am too and I dislike the DPP who wants to disengage. However, technically all parties are against independence.
To add my own personal opinion, I want people to stop talking about war and conflict with China because I think it's hurting Taiwanese businesses. I believe if we just let things lay and don't stoke the flames, Taiwan would prosper more.
*Edit: To expand upon my anger at people constantly saying China is going to war with Taiwan, who would invest in a nation that is going to war? It creates a situation where people think twice about investments. Better to keep our status quo and to stop talking about war entirely. Taiwan is free, this election clearly shows what we do and want is up to us. Stoking the flames of war only causes people to want to visit less and invest less. Taiwan is a beautiful place that is wonderful to visit. But if you think missiles are going to be lodged at Taiwan, you're less likely to be a tourist. This is why I'm on the side of 60% of Taiwanese and with the TPP and KMT, TPP more than KMT but as a third party they get less votes. OK I'm rambling but I think you get it.
Yes I get it totally. I was there myself and it is indeed a wonderful place to visit. My friend lived there at the time and showed me around. I particularly loved the markets with all the wonderful electronic components. Though I believe most of that has moved to Shenzen these days, I was there two decades ago when Taiwan was a huge manufacturing hub. As far as I know it's now more of a high-end semiconductor specialist.
What also suprised me is how Western Taipei felt. If everything weren't in Chinese it could have been a western city (albeit with a lot more motorscooters :P ). And the whole situation with China doesn't really seem to be a big 'thing' there. They are already deciding their own future and that's not really up for discussion. This issue seems to be playing more in the global media than on the ground.
I don't think a war will happen either. China is way too calculated for that. The CCP thinks in decade-long plans with subtle entanglement and exploitative loans, that's also their MO in Africa. Not a shooting war.
Well, Chinese cities will seem western and modern to you as well. I have family in China also. The media twists everything that's happening and well, I'm sick of it. I guess in some ways this is just me acting out.
My biggest issue is whenever USA has beef with China for God knows what, Taiwan gets dragged into whatever is going on. Leave us alone, that's all I want. In this case it's semiconductors.
The first Taiwan strait crisis was because USA wanted to beat up on China for the Korean war. Second crisis was a continuation of the first one.
The third Taiwan strait crisis was similar to Nancy Pelosi's visit.
So from my personal point of view, it's constantly the US stirring up trouble. Not everyone in Taiwan shares my views on this stuff. I'm at this point only talking what I believe.
But we all tend to agree to just keep our freedoms and the status quo.
*Edit I should add I dislike both China and the US and think they're bullies. They're bullies who bully each other and uses Taiwan as a flashpoint.
Thanks for your insights, it's very interesting hearing the perspective from someone who is actually living there. I can imagine you feel used in this conflict.
True, I know, but I don't think they did as much when I was in Taiwan 20+ years ago.
What is still being debated in Taiwan is if it should declare independence officially, or accept the status quo of factual being independent without declaring it. This is where the three major parties have a different stance, because the DPP kinda tends to the declaration, while the KMT still declares that Taiwan is the legitimate China.
About the vote: All three major parties say publicly that they are against re-union in terms of being ruled by China's CCP. Today, even Taiwan's KMT continues to view Taiwan as the free, democratic and legitimate China. So no, no-one voted "pro mainland China" in terms of how the chinese CCP wants to rule over Taiwan.
Status quo is: Taiwan has its own from China independent border control, independent military, independent health care system, independent education system, independent currency, independent law system which is derrived from Japanese and German law, and independent political system, which is democratic.
This is not an opinion, but just the facts. It's only CCPs rethoric that pretends the opposite.