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this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2024
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Hey, uhh, Europe? Can we talk?
Look, I know the way the left has been handling immigration has you upset, but could you please take a closer look at the absolute freaks you're electing today?
I mean, just take a good look at the United States, circa 2017 through 2020. Did we look like electing an absolute freak worked out for us? Did it fix our own immigration problems? Did it make electing your own Donald Trumps look like a good idea?
When people feel ignored in a democratic country, they begin to feel like the democracy they live in is a sham or that democracy itself doesn't work.
Votes like this aren't necessarily about "we need a different direction" and more about desperation and/or anger. They want to show the elites of their country that they still have the power, they want to cost them something for treating the population like it's there to be harvested from, they want to shake up the status quo at all cost.
They want to prove to themselves that their vote still matters.
Letting it get to this point is really bad governance. Once you get here, either they win, or they don't. And of they don't, most of the people who support them have their suspicions confirmed, they don't live in a democracy, they voted and didn't get what they want, again. This creates a division that is difficult to come back from.
Except the fascists ARE the elites most of the time. This never hurts them. It only hurts themselves.
Exactly. And they won't fix immigration, they'll just enrich themselves as much as they possibly can.
These right wing parties need migration. Their whole existence depends on there being immigrants to blame so actually closing the borders and "sending them home" is the worst move they can make politically speaking.
Correct, the next step in the strategy is to blame the immigration on any random external entity (cf Brexit). Eventually this may devolve into full blown war, genocides, etc etc.
Well, you know, there’s a type of “immigration” that fascists love, and the wage cost is zero. You just have to keep the “prisoners with jobs” alive.
not just right wing parties. every country with an aging population needs more young laborers and migrants can help.
fascists just need someone to blame, and someone desperate to do the same work for less pay.
No worries; foreigners, jews, blacks, arabs, and ofc the gays to start.
There is always someone to blame for everything.
Sometimes, you just wanna punch yourself in the dick. It won't fix your problems, but it'll make em feel less important for a few minutes.
Jimmy beat sausage, sometimes
Voting ultra right because of this is like trying to prove life is worth living by eating a bullet
I think you're being too charitable.
Some people will happily elect somebody that will be horrible to people they don't like. Far more people than is comfortable.
Sure, but that's not how it starts usually.
Democracy doesn't work when there's rampant misinformation and psyops.
All the shitheads on facebook are drip-fed russian troll-farm garbage and they eat it up like santa eats up biscuits on christmas eve.
There are literally no consequences to misinformation and disinformation. A politic can literally say anything and get away with it.
Well, that's dismissive. You don't think that these people are reacting to genuine concerns they have? Not even some of them, some of their concerns?
In an environment where nobody controls the information, people will lie. If democracy doesn't work when information flows freely, doesn't that mean democracy doesn't work?
What do you mean nobody controls the information? We're sitting here talking on lemmy, but most people (or at least most vooters) get their information from capital intensive sources controlled by the ruling class. Television is captured and subject to manipulation, mainstream "algorithmic" social media is captured and subject to manipulation, independent (local) print media is dead. I get really depressed when I think about it
So I was responding to the parent statement, he said when there's disinformation democracy doesn't work. Well in order to avoid disinformation, you need strong control of information flow. That sounds a lot like a dictatorship. The people you vote for control what you know about them, that's not democracy. So if democracy doesn't work because people lie, and democracy doesn't work if information is controlled, then democracy doesn't work, right? Interestingly, he confirmed lower in the thread that he does not believe in democracy.
I'm with you, all news is controlled propaganda. I don't follow any of it as a result. It is sad, but all we can do is try to live in the world we are in. I don't let it get me depressed, I just carry on.
"Information".
Are their concerns manufactured? Like "immigration bad", while it's proven that immigration boosts economy? Like "black people bad"?, "Gay bad"?
Did I miss any of the "concerns" that Afd party is prompting?
If I tell you that your nose will fall off if you don't give €5, that is not information.
An environment where no-one controls the information is anarchy. Anarchy is not a democracy, no.
An anarchy is an environment where no one controls the application of force. Information has nothing to do with it.
Seems to me you don't like democracy and only use it as a means to an end.
...and nobody controls the flow of information.
I think democracy is shit, when paired with unbridled capitalism and rampant disinformation & misinformation.
That doesn't mean I have an alternative. But it's definitely not anarchy.
It is a sham. An arrogant 3rd term fool imported a population increase of 3 percent in 18 months during a housing crisis and can't figure out why people hate him. Successfully lowered wages across the whole country after devaluing the currency intentionally. This is not a mystery why people wants see him at a minimum out of office immediately. I think you all know what a lot actually think should be done with him.