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[-] Th4tGuyII@kbin.social 68 points 7 months ago

Unfortunately email is likely the only federated network most people will know and be routinely exposed to. As such, it is the best way to describe what a federated network is. I describe the Fediverse something like such:

"Think about emails. There are loads of different providers (Gmail, outlook, Yahoo, etc.), each with their own web pages, their own email servers, etc.. But when you email someone else it doesn't matter what email provider they use, as long as you have their address, you can email them (assuming they haven't blocked you).

That's because emails are federated - every email provider sends emails the same way, using the same underlying language (or "protocol").

It's like how different parts of England or the US have way different accents, but because they're all speaking English, you'll generally understand what's being said.

Now imagine instead email providers, you had loads of little twitters doing the same thing. You could make a post and it gets sent out to all your followers, etc. no matter what little Twitter they're following you on. That's what Mastodon is - it's loads of little twitters in a trenchcoat.

Now imagine you did that for Facebook Groups [or Reddit if they're savvy enough]. Loads of little Facebooks where you could make groups and post, and people could join and view these posts regardless of what little Facebook they're on. That's what Lemmy is [or Kbin for the cool kids].

Everything on the Fediverse works like that. You have loads of little providers (instances), which all talk using the same underlying protocols (based on a protocol called ActivityPub), and act as one big interconnected web of social media."

It's a bit long winded, but it's simple and doesn't overwhelm with jargon. If they know what emails are, you can explain this to them..

I struggle to see another pathway in, because as I said before, most people aren't exposed to literally any other form of federation. Emails are to federation what Pandas are to Wildlife conservation.

[-] fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works 6 points 7 months ago

Maybe calling an instance a fediverse providors might help bridge the gap?

So email can work with multiple providers because they all speak the same federated language. Gmail can talk to yahoo can talk to outlook can talk to thunderbird etc etc

And Mastadon can talk to Lemmy can talk to peertube can talk to threads and on and on.

They can't talk to each other normally because they speak different languages (email protocol and the fediverse protocol).

[-] Th4tGuyII@kbin.social 6 points 7 months ago

That's why I use the "little providers" wording. Most people using email will know, or at least have an idea of, what an email provider is because they had to sign up with one to have said email. It translates easier when trying to teach people what an instance even is.

I don't tend to go as advanced as mentioning that the different Fediverse socials can technically talk to one another (due to all running off ActivityPub). I feel like that just adds a layer of confusion for someone learning, for a feature they may very well not use.

Normally, unless you're insane enough to build a bridge to make that work.
Though if the person I was teaching asked, I'd just say no haha

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[-] the_rogue@sh.itjust.works 58 points 7 months ago

The real question is why does threads even have users ? Like who is the target audience ?

[-] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 75 points 7 months ago

Casual Twitter users who left twitter after Musk took over but aren't thinking all that hard about what it was specifically that Musk brings to the table that creates the problems. They just see someone else made a Twitter alike, and they already have an Instagram account, so they give it a shot.

All they know is the people they liked on twitter are gone, but that there were elements of the Twitter experience they liked

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[-] wesker@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 7 months ago

The only people out in the wild I've heard mention Threads, were of boomer age.

[-] the_rogue@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago

Shouldn't boomers be on facebook or trying to ruin insta for the young ? Like threads do have better alternatives as it is the one of those time when zuck was kinda late with it.

[-] wesker@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 7 months ago

Maybe Meta is pushing Threads heavily to the Facebook userbase. I'm uncertain, because I do not use either.

[-] kevlar21@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago

They seem to push it harder on Instagram from what I’ve seen

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[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 6 points 7 months ago

Lmao Lemmy is sometimes so out of touch

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[-] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 57 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Ironically, shit like Facebook and Twitter are closer the the dark web what with not being available without a user account and being hubs for illicit activities. Do you think the boomers would have been able to organize January 6th without the Facebook algorithm introducing them to each other?

[-] Wilzax@lemmy.world 25 points 7 months ago

They literally are the deep web, and places of it can get pretty dark. But usually dark web refers to non-clearnet sites

[-] fosstulate@iusearchlinux.fyi 34 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

You explain it to normies by saying it's a link aggregator and discussion site and microblogger, like R/T. What they are really asking for, however, isn't a rundown of federation mechanisms but a rationale for the fed itself. 'How does it work?' really means 'What are the crucial differences and why do they matter?' So a good answer to that must talk about ownership, the profit motive, user friendliness, the perils of consolidation, etc.

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[-] WeirdAlex03@lemmy.zip 26 points 7 months ago

I think someone did make a proxy or something to interact with fedi through email, so, technically, yes, you can fediverse with your gmails

[-] jeze64@midwest.social 28 points 7 months ago

But can the Fediverse run Doom?

[-] BigMikeInAustin@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

I know it cannot, at this time, run Crysis.

[-] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 24 points 7 months ago

Using Lemmy is nothing at all like sending an email, this analogy needs to stop. Don't overwhelm people with jargon, just say there are different servers that interact with one another or something.

[-] lseif@sopuli.xyz 21 points 7 months ago

its similar in the sense that its decentralized. which is otherwise foreign to many.

[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 10 points 7 months ago

Call it a framework for social media sites that are all interconnected.

It is like an internet within the internet.

[-] Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social 8 points 7 months ago

Saying framework instantly would shut off my family members brain.

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[-] nifty@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I think functionally it doesn’t matter for a user, you just login via an app or webpage. If you don’t have your own instance, then it’s all the same to you.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 21 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

The email analogy is bad and needs to end. People hear email and think it's like email. They don't hear the technical how-it-works.

People don't need to know the inner workings to use it. Just tell them it's social media. If you need more, say it's lots of different servers that talk to each other.

[-] thantik@lemmy.world 28 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It's an apt analogy - that's why it keeps being used. Anyone can run their own email server, and federate by accepting emails from other email servers.

"The Fediverse" is just reinventing the wheel. It's basically just publicly viewable email. You are grandma from 1997 and the email that showed up as "FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: FW: Thought you might find this funny!"

[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 22 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

The problem is people think it's email. I don't blame them, they hear the word email and they think email.

They don't think or hear the technical explanation and workings of: "Anyone can run their own email server, and federate by accepting emails from other email servers." It's not how the vast, vast majority of people work.

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[-] snooggums@midwest.social 10 points 7 months ago

The email comparison is good, if you focus on what is actually being compared and not anything else about emails.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

That's the exact problem, people think about emails. You know, addresses and inbox and CC. They don't focus on or know or understand the technical comparison. They've never had to think about it before. It's the exact wrong way to try to introduce them to fediverse. Don't even say fediverse, just say Lemmy or whatever else.

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[-] MacedWindow@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

I agree with you 100% and have made the same argument elsewhere. You've done a good job explaining and defending it. I usually just tell people it's like reddit but not owned by one company. People who don't really know what a server is can understand the appeal of that.

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[-] Cosmicomical@lemmy.world 19 points 7 months ago

I've never a post with more than a thousand upvotes on lemmy until yesterday.

[-] Muscar@discuss.online 11 points 7 months ago

But have you completely missed writing a whole word before?

[-] Cosmicomical@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

Fun fact: my comment was actually missing 5 words.

[-] Toastbrotmann@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

Sort by "All" and "Active". There are multiple posts with 1k+ upvotes on most days.

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[-] muzzle@lemm.ee 14 points 7 months ago

Eventually an email to fediverse gateway will be a thing.

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 6 points 7 months ago

I thought you meant Gateway, like we'd all be on the same k8s instance behind a proxy, and I was ready to start ranting, but then I used my brain and realised you were speaking English

[-] fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago

I mean that is literally my dream. After some self hosting things I actually kind of want to try that myself. What would be really neet is to see what UIs could share the same backends!

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[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I honestly don't like the email analogy. I mean, there are no email servers that are defederated or something. "Why don't you answer my mails?" "Oh, you have a gmail adress? That's banned on my instance, sorry, not my fault."

But until I find a better one, I will continue using it.

Edit: Since I got some replies explaining that defederation in email servers is a thing, thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Still, my point holds that that's not a basic feature associated with mails. I don't think about which server to choose based on which servers are defederated. So explaining the fediverse to an uninitiated and relying on a feature that's huge in the fediverse but not even I'm aware of it in the context of mails, isn't good.

Tldr, I just moved to goalpost from "this doesn't exist" to "this isn't something normies are aware of"

[-] snooggums@midwest.social 12 points 7 months ago

Email domains regularly block specific email servers or even servers based on location. That is how the vast, vast majority of spam from foreign countries is blocked.

That is the same concept as defederation.

[-] thantik@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

That is literally a thing you know... gmail won't accept email from some servers unless they follow some specific, ever-changing standards. It's just that gmail is one of the largest providers, so people jump through major hoops to ensure that they accept emails from them.

[-] lemmyreader@lemmy.ml 7 points 7 months ago

I honestly don’t like the email analogy. I mean, there are no email servers that are defederated or something.

Here is a list to defederate with some email servers : https://www.spamhaus.org/faqs/spamhaus-blocklist/

[-] BigMikeInAustin@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

Sounds like federation could solve spam!

J/k

[-] ivanafterall@kbin.social 6 points 7 months ago

I want you to picture a series of tubes...

[-] odium@programming.dev 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)
[-] jeze64@midwest.social 9 points 7 months ago
[-] odium@programming.dev 4 points 7 months ago

LMAO, didn't scroll far enough in the readme to see that image.

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this post was submitted on 25 Mar 2024
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