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bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe (midwest.social)
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[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 9 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Honestly, I wonder how much of our disagreements do ultimately come down to moral philosophy. I see a lot of people making this comparison and I'd be happy to put aside the present political situation and step back to discuss a higher level of disagreement.

I am a consequentialist, and I would agree, in principle, that the correct decision in the trolley problem is to pull the lever. But that should always come with an extreme amount of disclaimers. There are no shortage of people throughout history who have made justifications for their actions on the basis of "the ends justify the means," but often, they turned out to be wrong. To use an example, torture under the Bush administration was claimed to be justified on the basis of getting useful intelligence in order to save lives. But no such intelligence was ever extracted. Really, it was more motivated by revenge, or a desire to be the sort of cool antihero who does the stuff nobody else will that needs to be done, but "the ends justify the means" served as a rationalization. Another example like that (though perhaps more controversial) is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The problem with applying the trolley problem to real life is that we are mere human beings of flesh and blood. We have a whole host of cognitive biases that mislead us even when we have the best of intentions. If we give our minds a way to justify things that we know are bad, it gives it an out that allows us to rationalize the irrational and justify the unjustifiable.

There are two practices that are necessary to apply in order to counteract these biases. First, it is necessary to adopt a set of strong moral guidelines based on past experience and historical evidence. Second, it is necessary to regularly practice some form of introspection or meditation in order to better understand where your thoughts and feelings arise from, and how they flow through your mind. Said guidelines do not have to be rigorously adhered to 100% of the time, but they should be respected, and only deviated from after clear, careful consideration, understanding why the guideline exists and why deviation from them is almost always bad.

"Base" consequentialism, where you recognize that pulling the lever in the trolley problem is the correct decision, but simply accept that as a guiding principle, is a terrible moral philosophy, worse than deontology and possibly worse than having completely unexamined moral views. Some of the worst atrocities in history are the result of that sort of "ends justify the means" approach, detached from a set of moral guidelines and detached from humility and self-reflection. I would even say, speaking as a communist, that many of the bad things communists have done in history are a result of that kind of mentality. Following moral rules blindly is preferable to breaking moral rules without first doing the necessary work to be trusted with breaking them.

There's plenty more I could say on the topic but people always complain about my long posts so I'd better cut myself off there.

[-] Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 5 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

Just reply to yourself with additional information. People like me can read through them all, and everyone else can skip them.

I found your post useful myself.

[-] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 hours ago

These are all sort of parody to begin with but the purpose of the trolley dilemma isn't about the results of the lever switch, it's about approaching complicity and participation in a system that creates this kind of immoral choice.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 5 points 4 hours ago

but the purpose of the trolley dilemma isn’t about the results of the lever switch, it’s about approaching complicity and participation in a system that creates this kind of immoral choice.

...

[-] CheeseNoodle@lemmy.world 8 points 5 hours ago

But if you have a choice between lots of violence and less violence isn't it immoral not to try and at least minimize the violence that you have to no power to stop?

[-] Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 hours ago

It depends if you have to participate in the violence to minimize it.

For example, take a public shooter who disabled a police responder. Does a nearby citizen have an obligation to seize the cops gun and attempt to stop the shooter? Should they be shamed if they do nothing and hide? Is that choosing to allow violence or choosing not to be a part in it?

Natural disasters happen, accidents happen, and people regularly stop and help. I would be surprised if someone didnt in those situations.

[-] Famko@lemmy.world 7 points 4 hours ago

There's the additional risk of being shot in your example, so I'd reckon that less people would try to take the gun in this case compared to the trolley problem.

[-] Rekorse@sh.itjust.works -2 points 2 hours ago

Theres also risk that you would get hurt helping in the other examples I gave.

Also a random by stander would have no idea what flipping a switch would do, it could derail the train and kill more than are on either track.

The situation in the trolley problem isnt realistic, and it definitely isnt simple or settled. Its an interesting thought experiment though.

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[-] TheDoozer@lemmy.world 44 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

I was going to make this, but put Palestine before the fork. And then put the person away from the lever refusing to participate when pulling the lever would move it to a track with nobody on it. Or pulling a different lever that does nothing (labeled Jill Stein).

Palestine is and will continue to get run over regardless who wins the presidency, so they aren't exactly relevant to the choice. It's not a real trolley problem because it's not a trade for different people. It's just "let the trolley run over Ukrainians, lgbtq+ people, minorities, and immigrants" or... don't. And then refusing to touch the lever because it somehow makes you "love genocide" to have anything to do with the trolley, even if to mitigate the damage.

[-] Valmond@lemmy.world 2 points 4 hours ago

Please do make it! Just wait a day or so maybe?

[-] Zachariah@lemmy.world 14 points 8 hours ago

Please also put someone on the trolley with control over the brake and label them: Israeli leaders, military, and citizens. Since the trolley doesn’t actually need to go anywhere, regardless of whether the US track-switching money/arms are sent.

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this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2024
653 points (90.6% liked)

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