It wasn't until Ron Paul was running for office that I learned that "liberal" was mostly used as a shorthand for "libertarian" and what a libertarian was. Before that I thought it just was a synonym for progressives/democrats. They're not left-wing. They're just not as far right as a fascist.
I disagree with Grue about Libertarianism, and also with you about the relation of the terms. Liberalism's definition is an ideology of personal freedoms and civil rights.
While that can be interpreted as deregulatory conservative by some, it is primarily a nonviolent ideology that protects disenfranchised.
Thats why its always so shocking to me to see tankies and anarchist thrashing Liberals on Lemmy. It's literally an ideology where people are treated fairly and equally. If they spoke out about specific Liberal Parties then I could hop onboard because those usually suck.
You seem to have the truest take. It just boils down emancipation. Leftist policies are liberal in nature, seeking freedom from the hierarchy of capitalism.
Most of the confusion seems to come from neoliberalism or market liberalism co-opting the term for conservative and authoritarian uses and now everyone is confused.
Leftists who need a distinction in the terms seem to fall into two categories; those who see liberals as reformists instead of revolutionaries (too moderate), and the false leftism of Lenin/Stalin etc sects who aim for an authoritarian model but without capitalism.
Liberal isn't shorthand for libertarian.
Although liberalism and libertarianism share some important characteristics (strong emphasis on equality before the law and civil rights), they're not the same thing.
Notably, libertarianism can be left-wing in a way that liberalism cannot (e.g. anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-communism, green politics, etc.). Some left-libertarians even reject the concept of private property entirely.
Liberalism doesn't completely overlap with right libertarianism, either. Liberals are more willing to accept some authoritarian ideas, such as e.g. having a military to protect trade.
Hard disagree, Libertarians are conservative anti-tax Laissez-Faire dumpster fires. They can never be left. Deregulation is not progress.
As long as you keep capitalizing the name and refer to the American political party, I would agree. However, grue is objectively correct here. A very wide set of ideologies fall under libertarianism.
A wide swath of libertarians find even the idea of a political party objectionable, for example.
Libertarian:
One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
One who believes in free will.
One who holds to the doctrine of free will.
DEREGULATION IS NOT PROGRESS. These guys basically have an identical ideology to LeVayen Satanism: "Do What Thou Wilt".
Libertarian: literally every ideology on the bottom half of the Political Compass, by definition.
The irony that you used that episode to emphasize your point is not lost on me.
Unconstrained campaign financing and lobbying will always dilute the power of democracy and liberalism, but liberalism is a good alternative to bloody revolutions or forced changes. Humanist philosophies prefer liberalism to some degree, but I could be wrong 🤷♀️
So this election was lost hard because of infighting and the resulting apathy so great thanks for adding more infighting by shitting on the inferior "liberals"
When I hear "liberal" or "left" now, all I hear is, "infighting little bitches with 1,000 messages and no focus". I hear FAILURE.
Do you think leftists were the reason Donald Trump got voted?
People, who I can tell from your tone already, might've voted until reading the kind of shit you'd write and then use that as an excuse to stay home, are a large part of the reason Trump got close to the same number of votes 4 years ago but Kamala got several million less than Biden did.
The point is that I don't give a fuck what they call themselves or what various things they believe differently than me, I just needed their vote. And the purity tests damn sure did not work in favor of that.
Do you honestly think there is any chance in hell that scolding people for not being left enough got anyone to vote for Harris?
Americans are so divisive they love to hate even on their own side. No true leftists, according to all of them
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