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Lefty Memes
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
- Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
Since it took a while for you to respond to me long after anyone would be looking, it seems like you're interested in a legitimate conversation with me concerning my leftist values. It looks like you've been thinking about this a lot. I'm willing to engage with you in good faith and explain my personal thinking.
One thing that is very important to have a productive conversation is to agree on the definition of terms. I wasn't being dismissive when I was offering sources from the Encyclopedia Britannica. One thing that makes many conversations completely impossible is different understandings of the same words, causing the parties involved to be arguing completely different points often without realizing. The reason I bring this up is specifically in regards to "Private Property," which is a bit more nuanced than encompassing all individual items "owned" by any given individual. There are no serious leftists advocating for confiscating handtools, computers, furniture, or other such pieces of individual property from the entire population and redistributing them equally. Although the definition can be construed this way, no one is arguing for that. For a better understanding of what is meant my "Private Proptery" in a more common politcal context, below is quoted Marx's view in Capital:
Edit: If you're willing to engage in good faith and clarify what we mean by the words we use, I would be more than happy to address your points and answer your questions.
I totally agree with you on agreeing on definitions and terms. I also have had the experience of arguing at cross purposes because of a difference in accepted terminology. (ex. fascism, capitalism, corporatism, etc). As I'm reading through your response several terms and items jump out at me.
"There are no serious leftists advocating for confiscating handtools, computers, furniture, or other such pieces of individual property from the entire population and redistributing them equally. Although the definition can be construed this way, no one is arguing for that. "
I would have to contest this point. Does it matter if you demand that a man turn over a loaf of bread if you put in place food rationing or tax the price of that loaf of bread? Does it matter if a man has a his physical assets left alone if his liquid assets are limited or taken from him? I find it ironic that the left labels hiring someone as exploitation but denies that taxation is extortion. The same with denouncing economic monopolies but promoting government which is a monopoly on violence by definition. If power is to be distributed then everyone should be responsible for their own self defense and monopolies on violence should be dissolved with the same vigilance as economic monopolies. Where is the antitrust agency against governments?
"Private property, as the antithesis to social, collective property, exists only where the means of labour and the external conditions of labour belong to private individuals. "
What? Labor = private individuals. He who creates owns. He who labors trades. This is why I find Marxism confusing. You don't get capital without mixing your labor with resources. You can't trade for some other product without gaining some kind of capital. Laborers = capitalists. Capitalists are not some upper class rich folks. If you plant seeds, till the ground and reap a harvest then that harvest you yield is your capital. if you sell that food you are a capitalist even if you are only making enough to keep your home running and to plant next years crop. Trade = capitalism. This whole paragraph makes NO sense! I'm just going to say that up front.
"From that moment new forces and new passions spring up in the bosom of society; but the old social organisation fetters them and keeps them down. It must be annihilated; it is annihilated. Its annihilation, the transformation of the individualised and scattered means of production into socially concentrated ones, of the pigmy property of the many into the huge property of the few, the expropriation of the great mass of the people from the soil, from the means of subsistence, and from the means of labour, this fearful and painful expropriation of the mass of the people forms the prelude to the history of capital…"
First of all centralization of wealth didn't just happen organically. Corporate charters are a product of the state. So is colonization. Seriously where would Big Pharma or Big Media be without patants and copyright? Where would modern economics be without limited liability? What if we stopped backing corporations up with government protectionism? "That guy copied my drug formula!" "That guy won't stop making free copies of my music album!" "That business copied my logo!" " Help I'm being sued for making a dangerous product and useless warning labels!" Don't get me started on private banks, the federal reserve or the IMF etc, all of which are ALSO businesses backed by government. Governments didn't just magically get money and land either. They literally stole it from other people for the most part through force of arms. So when you take monopolies on violence out of the picture and government protectionism out of the picture what are you left with? Self owned businesses backed by labor and trade, ie what Marx would call "laborers". Granted there can be centralizations of wealth but this can be countered by people just copying, innovating and undercutting others.
"Self-earned private property, that is based, so to say, on the fusing together of the isolated, independent labouring individual with the conditions of his labour, is supplanted by capitalistic private property, which rests on exploitation of the nominally free labour of others, i.e., on wage labour…"
Yeah this is another what? How is hiring and PAYING THEM free labor? You're out the cost of their pay cheque! They are literally trading their time and effort for money. How is that free labor either way? Moreover how is that exploitative? One could argue that one CAN exploit others by underpaying them but that's not what is being discussed here from what I understand. This seems to be a general statement about employment. So yeah, what?!?! Definitely a difference in terminology there.
"The capitalist mode of appropriation, the result of the capitalist mode of production, produces capitalist private property. This is the first negation of individual private property, as founded on the labour of the proprietor. "
As explained before there is no "capitalist" vs "individual" private property. The individual IS a capitalist. Ergo there is just "private property." Much of this seems to be discussing class divisions but trying to create a difference in terms between those who trade in goods and services and those who produce those goods and services. To use an example. A farmer grows a crop. He then sells that crop to a traveling merchant caravan. The caravan then transports those food stuffs to a big town market where they are resold by grocers in the marketplace. When does one start being an elite? Is it the caravan owner? The marketplace vendors? Who?
"But capitalist production begets, with the inexorability of a law of Nature, its own negation. It is the negation of negation. This does not re-establish private property for the producer, but gives him individual property based on the acquisition of the capitalist era: i.e., on cooperation and the possession in common of the land and of the means of production. (Chapter 32)"
You're going to have to explain that because that makes zero sense. None. Zip.
This sounds pretty socialist to me. I'm completely with you when it comes to changing structures in our society to incentive pro-social behavior rather than the selfish behavior as our system does. I don't think anyone appreciates that being a ruthless competitor to the detriment of ones neighbors is often rewarded in our systems. If such ruthless people pursued their selfish desires in a system which accommodates their nature and rewards them for having a pro-social effect, I think they would be extremely beneficial rather than a danger as they are now.
I think most people agree that it's a good thing to have a community of some kind. In that community it's a good thing to help one another, or more specifically to trade favors. As a community can provide many services and infrastructure to all members of that community which no individual could provide for themselves on their own, I don't think it's out of the question that all able-bodied members of that community contribute to it. The people who receive from the community but don't contribute to it when they could in my opinion are parasites. I'm not talking about the elderly and disabled who would if they could and deserve their dignity, of course, because that's all our destiny. If someone takes from their community without giving back to it, I would have a problem with them and probably insist that they get off their ass or leave probably with other people who care about them and would rather they straighten up. I don't think that kind of compulsion is unfair. When someone is sick or compromised, it is in the community's interest to help that person back to health and provide them what they need to get better and there's no need to compel that. This is essentially how humans have always lived until recently in some parts of the world.
No, I don't think such lazy jerks should be imprisoned and forced to labor. Social pressure is enough. I respect their right to complain about having to work at all because if a society runs cooperatively, when we fix those problems we have less work to do and more time to live life with family and loved ones.
I think my metaphor holds in these aspects as well.
In a lot of cases, taxation is colonialism. I do not appreciate my tax dollars being spent on international murders, and I don't imagine most people would appreciate it either if they understood the extent of it. In any government using resources for oppression is intolerable. That being the case, not all tax dollars are used for the purposes of oppression. Taxes fund a multitude of necessary resources, services, and infrastructure in a way a profit-driven organization could not. One may not personally care about babies starving to death being prevented by a government program, but in situations that babies starve to death very negative consequences could arise that come around to affect them and others. In cases like these, I think it's appropriate to extract taxes from stupid, ignorant, or outright psychopathic people for the social good even if they are individually unable to understand it's not ok to allow babies to starve to death in a healthy society anywhere at any time. There is of course the matter of the effectiveness and cost of these programs which should of course be open to scrutiny and improvement on a democratic basis. (cont2)
I get that a lot lol. One moment I'll be criticized for being ultra right wing and the next I'll be called a socialist or a communist because I advocate for the voluntary redistribution and democratization of power and resources. Being an anarchist just means I value freedom and oppose compulsion. It doesn't mean I oppose either private ownership or money pooling and decentralizing power. In fact decentralizing power makes more sense because it empowers more people on an individualist level. More cooperation and economic competition.
I'd have to disagree with you somewhat. Competition is sometimes very necessary and it drives innovation and prices down. For example right now there are like 4 big telecom giants in Canada, probably less due to mergers. Which means there isn't all that much competition to drive down the price of internet or cell phone bills. Just a quick example there. I get where you're coming from wanting people on a community level to cooperate more but much like anything else whether something is harmful or helpful depends on dosage and context. If you're trying to unite a community ridden with poverty, backbiting and enmity you want less competition. If you're dealing with huge oligarchies and monopolies you want more. I'd also argue anything you need to live should be decentralized and produced in almost every home if possible, at least in every neighborhood. If you thought industry and food prices would be affected by this trade war then consider what it will do to pharmaceuticals when most of those are patented and made in the U.S. AND are all piped through a single warehouse on the east coast. Centralization and importation dependence like that is INSANE! Like if you're in BC you're basically getting your pills made in the U.S., imported to Canada, shipped to Halifax, sorted, then shipped all the way BACK to B.C. even if they were originallu produced in like OR or Cali or something. It's nuts. Which brings us back to producing food, medicine, waste reclaimation, resource production, medical, definitely need midwives (for a number of years moms were being flown out of my home town in order to give birth because there was no one on staff to deliver them. I'm from a small town. So yeah I think of these things), and other basic medical staff. Like things you need to keep you alive should NOT be imported from another province and definitely not from another country. They should be produced in your own town, preferably in your own home. In that regard I'm very much an individualist. That being said if everyone is growing a garden then that lends itself to trade. Also people will have different skill sets. So long as there is a seamstress, a blacksmith and a doctor in town, they can all fill the roles. The problem is when you have to import or export just to get basic stuff done. In that regard I can understand Trump's position. But, he forgets how Canada got it's independence. 😉. We didn't fight a war, we simply produced all our own stuff and became too expensive for the British homeland to support. Canadians are very independent and productive. And my point here is wanting to produce your own stuff and be self sustaining goes both ways which is why it needs to be decentralized. Like I said put the renewable power, water recycling and gardens in every home not just rich ones. Even getting rid of lawns would help. Being self sustaining shouldn't be a mark of the elites but a normal culture trait. And it doesn't have to be expensive either. It's mostly just a shift in how we behave and do things.
Like all this would create resource security, democratize production, and would promote individual liberty. But you can also see how it both increases competition while also brings people together and promotes a sense of community and cooperation. People would be competing less with each other and more creating more completion for big conglomerates. You want tomatoes you or your neighbors can grow those yourselves. You want grain, someone is probably growing that on the outskirts of town. There is no need to import daily resources. I mean I think that should be the goal.
This sounds like a form of shunning or disassociation to me. And I think you are referring to CEOs of politicians and the like. But what would happen if such elite whales DID leave? What if everyone in the U.S. shunned say Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates? Do you think the shut down of Twitter, PayPal, SpaceX, Tesla and half a dozen other ventures wouldn't cause a bit of notice? Or all of Meta, including Facebook, Instagram and Oculus VR? Gates may not run Microsoft anymore but let's just say it shut down in his name or maybe he was shunned because of his support of vaccines and eugenics. Again either his "philanthropy" goes poof or his tech impact does. My point is even if you think someone just sits around gaining a passive income they are usually affecting more than you know. Moreover you have to consider what would be affected by their absence? Even if you don't like the person in question. I don't like Bill Gates. You probably don't like Elon Musk. But that's not the point. The point is if you shun someone for "leeching off society" what kind of hole is left when they are gone?
All this being said. This whole concept makes me think of ceiling an antisocial individual to an uninhabited island and making them fend for themselves for a time. Maybe something similar could be arranged. Want to get drunk and mooch of your parents all day? Get sent out into the forest with a knife and a week's rations or something. Want to be a useless douche of a politician? You are remanded to the Amish for a year. The problem is your idea, or mine, of who or what is considered leeching off society or of who isn't worthy is subjective. So creating legislation would also be subjective. Also who is this society? What are the standards of contributing? If contributing means economic contribution what about all those full time moms? Is non paid work of no value? What about parents loving their children. Does that consist of value? Like I said, subjective.
This basically sums up why I think one should be able to unsubscribe and/or direct where they want funds to be spent. You're right taxes are often not spent on what we want. And you're right taxes are often used to support social safety nets. However again you are justifying coersion. Look 50% of the U.S. budget goes to military spending. That means someone blatantly disagrees that babies dying is of greater concern than blowing shit up. And in either case you will have someone feel morally outraged. Either babies and others will die without medical treatment, food and shelter or there will be funds diverted from security and conquest to provide it. Either way you'll have someone thinking the other should be forced to give up coin to the opposing cause. So why not give both, and all, the choice? Also not everyone wants 50% to go to the military I'd wager.