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Murdered by numbers.
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this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2023
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Murdered by Words
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Responses that completely destroy the original argument in a way that leaves little to no room for reply - a targeted, well-placed response to another person, organization, or group of people.
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- "Your values are bad" without any logcal or factual ways of showing that they are wrong ("I believe in capitalism" - "Well, then you must be evil" or "Fuck you you ignorant asshole")
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Well to a certain degree I guess. They're never going to be as equal as numbers can. What is even meant by men and women being "equal"? Equality of opportunity?
this comes up in math too. there are many situations where we don’t need mathematical objects to be platonic copies to treat them “equally” so we work with equivalence relations instead.
Why do you ask?
It's been my experience that people who value equality don't care about the nitty gritty of what it means, because it's a value. An ideal. And if you hold equality as an ideal, that means it's always something to work towards. Inqualities are triaged, but they're all something that we should overcome in the name of fairness and egalitarianism.
Someone always brings up "equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome" when they want to disrupt and derail people who value equality by getting them to wrestle in the mud about how much equality is too much. And, to be frank, it feels like you're trying to throw the "equality of outcome" wrench into the gears here, and I don't believe that is ever done in good faith.
What's the problem with equality of outcome? What does it even mean? Where does the objection come from?
Simply put, it comes from resentment. It comes from the idea that "I worked hard, so I deserve a better quality of life than someone I choose to believe worked less hard!" And that's just a long way of saying "I believe I am more deserving than someone else".
But why? Often this comes from people who already have a certain level of comfort in life believing that they hold more right to that comfort, safety, and happiness than someone else. Too often in this sphere, it comes from people who liked tech and did well in technical subjects in school believing that that entitles them to a higher quality of life than someone who wasn't interested in or had no special aptitude for those subjects. But shouldn't one of the freedoms that comes from equality being the freedom to find joy in what you want? Why should I be rewarded more lucrative Ly than you for enjoying something different?
And if I don't enjoy it, should it really make sense for me to suffer at something I don't enjoy for the sake of wealth? Maybe the equality of outcome is really the equal ability to experience joy, and comfort, and security no matter what we enjoy and how we invest our time? If the world has the resources to allow it, then why should one person be punished for chasing their joy while another is rewarded?
The answer usually boils down to "I made better decisions, so I should be rewarded!" which is just another way of saying "people who make mistakes should be punished!"
And that seems like bullshit. What kind of world is that? Where people aren't safe to make mistakes (and this is ignoring the idea that someone's passion can be considered a mistake)? Where they're punished for trying something different? Or for not jumping on a trend? Where safety and comfort are used as crudgles to force people to do things that make them miserable?
Because that's really what "what do you mean by equality?" is really saying.
Dang, if this isn't a copypasta, it ought to be.
That we're all human beings who deserve to not have our gender determine what we can and cannot do? I think that's pretty obvious. In practice, of course, we're not there yet. Misogyny is rampant and insidious. But the goal in my mind is for gender to just legitimately not matter at all, outside of, like, romantic and sexual relationships.
And in the first place, aren't we all different?
Nobody is just man or woman and nothing else. We all have a huge number of traits that all together make us individuals. From the physical like size, hair and so on to the mental, what we enjoy, what interests us and so on.
King Charles, the Rock and me are men. Solely on gender we are the same. But people would be quick to point out all the differences.
Equity: equality of available options.
Plus a whole huge swathe of problematic gender expectations to squash to boot.
No, it's not about squashing the identities themselves, it's about squashing the gendered expectations. Women shouldn't be expected to know how to do laundry, cook, or avoid dirty jobs. Men shouldn't be expected to be tough and "walk off" injury and trauma, etc.
Sure, only some are "different", but remember: It's not about dissing or removing the identities themselves, (outside of the highly problematic ones like the very machismo man) it's about not setting them as expectations for everyone.
Laundry and cooking are basic life skills and most people regardless of gender should know how to do those tasks. No one should be expected to be doing those tasks because of their gender.
My parents have been together since they were 14 and follow “traditional” gender roles when it comes to housekeeping skills including cooking and laundry (although they treat each other as equals and certainly raised my brother to be fully independent). My mum has terminal cancer and she’s started to teach my dad the things he’ll need to be able to do for himself soon. It’s equal parts heartbreaking and hilarious watching the sheer panic in my dad’s eyes as my mum is explaining pretty basic cooking skills. Everyone should know how to cook, clean and do the laundry no matter their gender.
It is very sad to hear your of your mother's condition. It is absolutely beautiful and heartwarming she is taking the time to teach your father and leave him more prepared for his future. They must truly care for each other
They do 🙂 And as awful as it that my mum is dying, I think as a family we’re making the best of the time we have left. Thank you for your kindness.
I agree. That's why conservatives who are ree-ing about "the queers" not knowing these basic skills not only belies how pathetic they are, but goes to show it is distinctly not about them being better than anyone. They just want legal slaves again, whether they'll admit it or not. That's what a trad wife effectively is. A house slave, since they lost real slaves further back.