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this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2025
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MeanwhileOnGrad
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Without artificial scarcity created by capitalism theft wouldn't be a problem. Just let abundance of bikes and even if someone steals it you can always borrow another one.
Belgium has 250k euros median net wealth. High minimum wage. High social mobility. Tax funded education from age 3 to end of higher education.
Cheap public transport.
The e bikes are paid by your taxes when you have a job.
Young guys steal because they like risk and lack respect
You got suace for this claim?
My understanding is that Belgium is highly stratified society with certain groups enjoying very high quality of living while out groups not having access to good jobs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index
We scored pretty high there.
Why would people not have access to good jobs?
Education is tax funded. Who are these people that don't have access to good jobs?
50% of people age 25 to 34 here have completed higher education
Well vast majority of people within any country but thank you for the link
Aight I'm an accountant here. The government somehow has people accepting this system:
Minimum wage about 2000 euros netto, probably even higher. Per month.
Someone with 3200 euros gross will have about 2240 euros net.
80% of the gross goes majorly to social contribution and personal income tax.
Then afterwards, for every euro you earn (gross) you pay 13,07% social contribution and then about 45 to 55% personal income tax on the leftover.
Our income gini is 0,26.
The true way to earn money in Belgium is to consume less and save more. We're manipulated into doing that.
21% VAT brakes consumption. 0% capital gains tax on real estate makes people buy their house with a mortgage. The interest of the mortgage is basically paid by the capital gains. Same with stocks/gold/...
You need to be educated in Belgium. The law is equal for all.
Ok, so why can't you just take another bike?
My job requires me to be trustworthy. If I get caught stealing a bike, even though they won't do much, it might get on crime record. Whenever I look for a new job, I will need to give them my crime record and explain myself.
If I, at age 29, am stealing bikes. Then I am just worthless scum.
If it's a 19 year old jobless guy who is still studying and living with his parents, then it's more acceptable. Even though this kid will be viewed with caution by future employers.
We could likely implement city bikes funded by taxes and have them all over the city. Have trackers in them and punish people who hoard/sell them.
There's already a private option for that, costs like 2 euros per day. But it doesn't seem that popular.
Most people enjoy having their own bike, with premium material.
My bike is 9700 euros. Of course people will want to steal it. They either don't know the consequences or think it won't matter.
Sorry by "take" i didn't mean "steal", I'm not telling you to steal a new bike if you don't want to lol
Again, theft wouldn't be a problem in a moneyless society, since all bikes have the same value and everyone has an access to those bikes, not like in our society where a more costly and less available bike is more valued and therefore entices people to steal.
What's the largest amount of people that tried this moneyless stateless society stuff and how long did it last
Ussr was state capitalist, north Korea is Kim's paradise. Cuba is state capitalist. China is capitalist.
Many indigenous peoples lived so for millennia. In Europe, the attempts from the past were Paris Commune most notably, Makhno's Free Territory, etc. Those which stand today are Rojava, "Exarcheia" in Greece, "Christiania" in Denmark, areas in Mexico controlled by Zapatistas, hundreds of small intentional communities, and many tribal communities.
Yeah, I know?
So I can just go to that 22k population area in Athens and take a car there?
Is the quality of life even better than living in a social house in Belgium with 0 property and never working a day?
I mean, I can leech just fine where I am. I don't need to go to a poorer area for that
I can suppose you don't have any problems with landlords, bosses, or discrimination, you're the member of the class that has the best or at least good quality of life under the current system. Your main problem are some shitty bikes, while some have to deal with the fact they don't have a roof under their head just because some greedy owner doesn't allow them to live in an unused house, or a sick person who cannot afford treatment again because they have to pay some absurdly large sum of money. Capitalism is not a system that sustains everyone or gives equal opportunity for everyone's growth, no, it's just for a small, lucky group of people, it concentrates wealth at the top of the hierarchy.
The communities I mentioned are self-sustaining and anti-hierarchical, they grow together for the good of the community, and at least trying to be those places where there's no discrimination, and not the place where basic needs are a commodity (like your beloved Belgium). They're poor by the standards of modern capitalist countries, which is all about money, so in my eyes, there's no such thing as "poor", just a person who is born in the system where their class is treated unfairly.
How scary!!! /s
You're free to go there, I'm free to stay where I am.
A group of 22k people that can't compete with foreigners moving into their neighborhood.
I don't think they'll be making a big impact.
We have universal healthcare, social housing, free higher education, free guidance for immigrants, ... All here in Belgium. We're wealthier than Greece by a long shot. We have the ability to build a proper trampoline for people.
The thing is though. They receive that help so that they can get proper jobs/self employment and be more than self sustainable. They can start owning capital.
Which is how we sustain our society.
I know more about socialism than most people. I've been talking to socialists for plenty of years.
I've never heard a single one of them talk properly about economics.
They just want a certain end goal, but have no clue how to get there.