399
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
399 points (96.1% liked)
News
23311 readers
1300 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
14th Amendment to the US Constitution, Section 3:
This does not require judicial input. The language is clear. Trump is, along with many co-defendants, disqualified from holding any civil or military office.
The judicial input is on whether Trump qualifies to be included in that described group which is disqualified. The problem with the self-executing clause here is that of course the described group of people are barred but who decides who qualifies?
That is for state officials whose duty it is to ensure that only qualified persons are on the ballot to enforce. Indeed, if those state officials refuse or neglect to enforce the US Constitution, they could be held personally responsible.
He's not yet been convicted. If he gets on some ballots, wins those states' Republican primaries, and then gets convicted (and thus disqualified) the party will have to decide who of the other candidates gets their nomination. If different candidates came in second in different states, that could get interesting.
Not until proven guilty, legally speaking, surely?
The language specifically does not require any conviction. A conviction would make 14A S3 undeniably apply, but a lack of conviction doesn't make it not apply.
You kinda just said that it can be denied that it applies without a conviction. I think it's tenuous at best, but I'm not a lawyer. I just know that, typically, you can't say someone did a thing if it hasn't been legally proven.
If the amendment had required a conviction of some kind, that requirement would have been stated. It is not.
Sure you can. Trump is a rapist. He raped e jean Carrol with his fingers. Wasn't convicted but facts are facts.
The Jan 6th commission is enough to show he participated in an insurrection.
It doesn't say "convicted of...".
I doubt they put every Confederate on trial. Still I imagine there must be some court ruling for this to be the case. IANAL but a state court may make this decision and bar him from running in their state.
"But that was only an amendment and it was written so long ago!" - Somebody with the second amendment printed out and framed above their gun masturbatorium.
The gun Masturbatorium is a sacred workshop of Cult Masturbatio of the Adeptus Mechanicus, they are in charge of "Jacking" the most ancient and revered ranged weapons. Youre thinking of the Techno-lustris run jointly by the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Dark Mechanicum.
And his remedy is a two thirds vote qualifying him.
You're absolutely right, but we live in a time where just recently poor people could have their lives DESTROYED over a joint, while on the other hand, a president can 100% knowingly tell an enormous crowd who he knows wants violence to "go to the capitol and fight fight fight" and that's somehow completely a grey area and our hands are just tied.
Somehow all the testimony that he was watching the coverage of it gleefully doesn't matter. The fact that even ignoring everything else it ought to be a crime that he didn't ask them to stop. Oh it's all just our opinion that he committed treason don't you see?
Most of the legal minds I've heard discuss this think it's pretty interesting philosophically, but not at all actionable. Former US attorneys Preet Bharara and Chuck Rosenberg mentioned it in a recent podcast that I found super insightful.
The only reason it isn't actionable is because the SCOTUS's current concept of standing leaves entire provisions of the Constitution unenforceable. If no one has standing to sue for an unconstitutional act or omission, then it renders the provision meaningless. Which is absolute and utter bullshit. Every single election official that lets Trump on the ballot should be sued in federal court seeking a writ of mandamus forcing them to follow the requirements set upon them under the Constitution.
Here's the tiny mention in there:
Except that it very clearly is self-executing. I'll paste it in here again for easy reference:
Breaking it down:
What is the disqualification from office stated in the section title? "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, ..."
Who does this apply to? Anyone "who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
What is the remediation for this disqualification? "Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
As a comparison, Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 reads:
If a 23 year old Frenchman decided to run for US President, what would happen? Would there need to be some kind of trial or judicial review? No - state officials would disqualify Mr. Young French from appearing on the ballot. And then, if Mr. Young French wanted to protest that decision, he would initiate a court filing, after having been disqualified.
14A S3 is self-executing. The reason Rosenberg in the podcast says he's "not sure what the triggering mechanism would be" is because there isn't one.
I'm a complete layman when it comes to law so forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but would the official in question have to be actually convicted of insurrection/rebellion before this comes into effect? I assumed that's what they meant by "It's not self executing" because otherwise would it not just be up to each state officials individual discretion to exercise this? Thanks so much for the detailed breakdown, Preets podcasts have turned me into a bit of an uneducated legal nerd so this is all fascinating to me.
IANAL, but I'd say yes. Conviction should be required, if it weren't politicians could just accuse their opponents to disqualify them.
Unrelated, but is your name a psych reference??
You know that's right
Come on, son!
Don’t be exactly half of an 11-pound Black Forest ham.
There is nothing in the text of the amendment which requires any criminal conviction, civil settlement, judicial review. If you're interested in a really detailed breakdown and argument for why Trump (and many others) are disqualified from holding office, I highly recommend reading The Sweep and Force of Section Three, which was the paper that really set all of this 14A S3 discussion in motion. It is very long, and very detailed, but it's a relatively easy read, in mostly plain language. I haven't even gotten all the way through it yet, I'm still working on it. Much of my understanding of this issue comes from this paper, but believe me when I say I'm not just waving it aloft and declaring that it's gospel. What it says makes sense.
With regard to your question about each state officials' discretion to exercise, there's another comment in this mess of a thread where I go into some more detail on that. I also made note somewhere that, because this is constitutional law, state officials who refuse or neglect to follow the Constitution may be in a position where they could be held personally responsible for failing to apply the law if they don't disqualify people who are disqualified by 14A S3.
Edit: For the record, Rosenberg stated early in that podcast that he favored Ford pardoning Nixon. That pardon played a huge part in the situation we find ourselves in today. It set a precedent that presidents can commit crimes without consequences. We had an opportunity to set a fair and equal precedent, and we did not. Rosenberg being okay with kicking that can down the road doesn't give me a great deal of confidence in his opinions.
This is an easy one for anyone capable of critical thinking and knows "innocent until proven guilty".
He hasn't been convicted of anything, only accused.
14A S3 does not require a conviction.
Bullshit. Otherwise you could just accuse your political rivals of crimes to prevent them from running.
You need to go back to internet lawyer school.