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[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml -3 points 4 days ago

Yes, the CPC is a working class party with a hair over 100 million members, and the system of democracy in China is distributed into local, regional, and the central government.

[-] deltaspawn0040@lemmy.zip 4 points 4 days ago

Oh, the government is separated into smaller local and regional governments and less than 10% of all Chinese citizens (there are 1.4 billion) are members of the CCP? Cool fun facts, I always love to learn, but you did not answer my question.

Does the government of the People's Republic of China support and protect the legal right of the working class to control the means of production?

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml -1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the working class is in control of the state. These are the basic requirements for socialism, at least in the Marxist understanding. I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to, a petite bourgeois cooperative quasi-socialism? If the working class directing the economy, as I already explained is the case in China, isn't "controlling the means of production," what exactly is your vision here? Because it certainly isn't standard.

[-] deltaspawn0040@lemmy.zip 2 points 4 days ago

So... no protections, no real policy, no solid connection between the working class and power except for this notion that the government has the interests of the working class at heart. Is that right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_by_net_worth

Read through the above list and tell me these people must work for a living, that they could not live solely off of their assets. Why are these 607 people allowed to hoard such massive wealth and own so much if the working class controls the means of production and the economy? How is that good for anyone?

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I've explained how the working class is in control of the state, you don't have to trust the government, you can trust the people themselves. The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:

China does have billionaires, yes. China is in the developing stages of socialism. Between capitalism, which is characterized by private ownership being the principle aspect of the economy and the capitalists in control of the state, and communism, characterized by full collectivization of production and distribution devoid of classes, is socialism, where public ownership is principle and the working classes in control. China in particular is working its way out of the initial stages of socialism:

The reason China has billionaires is because China has private property, and the reason it has private property is because of 2 major factors: the world economy is still dominated by the US empire, and because you cannot simply abolish private property at the stroke of a pen. China tried that already. The Gang of Four tried to dogmatically force a publicly owned and planned economy when the infrastructure best suited to that hadn't been laid out by markets, and as a consequence growth was positive but highly unstable.

Why does it matter that the US Empire controls the world economy? Because as capitalism monopolizes, it is compelled to expand outward in order to fight falling rates of profit by raising absolute profits. The merging of bank and industrial capital into finance capital leads to export of capital, ie outsourcing. This process allows super-exploitation for super-profits, and is known as imperialism.

In the People's Republic of China, under Mao and later the Gang of Four, growth was overall positive but was unstable. The centrally planned economy had brought great benefits in many areas, but because the productive forces themselves were underdeveloped, economic growth wasn't steady. There began to be discussion and division in the party, until Deng Xiapoing's faction pushing for Reform and Opening Up won out, and growth was stabilized:

Deng's plan was to introduce market reforms, localized around Special Economic Zones, while maintaining full control over the principle aspects of the economy. Limited private capital would be introduced, especially by luring in foreign investors, such as the US, pivoting from more isolationist positions into one fully immersed in the global marketplace. As the small and medium firms grow into large firms, the state exerts more control and subsumes them more into the public sector. This was a gamble, but unlike what happened to the USSR, this was done in a controlled manner that ended up not undermining the socialist system overall.

China's rapidly improving productive forces and cheap labor ended up being an irresistable match for US financial capital, even though the CPC maintained full sovereignty. This is in stark contrast to how the global north traditionally acts imperialistically, because it relies on financial and millitant dominance of the global south. This is why there is a "love/hate" relationship between the US Empire and PRC, the US wants more freedom for capital movement while the CPC is maintaining dominance.

Fast-forward to today, and the benefits of the CPC's gamble are paying off. The US Empire is de-industrializing, while China is a productive super-power. The CPC has managed to maintain full control, and while there are neoliberals in China pushing for more liberalization now, the path to exerting more socialization is also open, and the economy is still socialist. It is the job of the CPC to continue building up the productive forces, while gradually winning back more of the benefits the working class enjoyed under the previous era, developing to higher and higher stages of socialism.

In doing this, China has presented itself to the global south as an alternative to the unequal exchange the global north does with the global south, which is accelerating the development of the global south. China is taking a more indirect method of undermining global imperialism than, say, the USSR, but its been remarkably effective at uplifting the global working classes, especially in China but also in the global south.

Put another way:

The English language is violence, I hotwired it

I got a hold of the master's tools and got dialed in

I'm downwind with the drop

I'm Deng Xiaoping, smoking oil in the wok

-billy woods

For further reading:

  1. Qiao Collective's Introductory Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Study Guide

  2. Socialism with Chinese Characteristics ProleWiki page

  3. Socialist Market Economy ProleWiki Page

  4. People's Republic of China ProleWiki Page

  5. My "Read Theory, Darn It!" Introductory Marxist-Leninist Reading Guide

  6. Has China Turned to Capitalism? Reflections on the Transition from Capitalism to Socialism by Domenico Losurdo

  7. China Has Billionaires by Roderic Day

  8. The Long Game and its Contradictions

  9. Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism by Vladimir Lenin

  10. Super-Imperialism: The Origins and Fundamentals of U.S. World Dominance by Michael Hudson

  11. Marxism is a Science by Deng Xiaoping

  12. Regarding the Construction of Socialism With Chinese Characteristics by Xi Jinping

[-] deltaspawn0040@lemmy.zip 4 points 4 days ago

Oh my God. Holy fuck I gotta hand it to you for this amount of effort. It's gonna take me a while to sort through all this, gimme a minute.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 days ago

The secret is that about half of it is something I've already written about before, elsewhere. I talk a lot about Marxism-Leninism and socialist countries, and people often repeat the same questions or talking points, so at this point I have almost always already spoken on a topic before. That being said, the other 50% was original, haha.

Take your time, there's no rush. We aren't in a competition.

[-] deltaspawn0040@lemmy.zip 2 points 4 days ago

I think Lemmy is training me not to start arguments because all y'all lemmings don't just yell into the void, you link back to further reading and now if I want to stand my ground I'm gonna have to do like an hour(s) of research. Welp, maybe if I didn't want to do research on a complex topic I shouldn't have started talking about Chinese economic policy... Sigh

I still think you're dead wrong for the moment but the order and civility with which you're presenting your claims when faced with my admittedly hostile tone in the previous comments is something I admire. I'll get back to you after I've done some research.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 days ago

We Marxists have a saying: no investigation, no right to speak. Given the immense hostility to Marxism and to socialist countries in the English speaking world and internet, those of us that come to Marxism generally only do so through reading, studying, organizing, and facing material reality head-on and finding that the dominant narrative doesn't line up.

I used to share skepticism for China like you do now, and it took a lot of reading and conversation with comrades for me to come around to being pro-China. The kicker there is that you'll find those supportive of socialism, Marxism, etc have mountains of sources ready to go, because most of us have been through that same process, while most of those opposed to socialism and opposed to China have done so through cultural osmosis.

In general, as long as you maintain an open mind and try to speak on what you've investigated previously, you'll rarely be outright wrong.

For what it's worth, me being more civil is more of a personal choice than the norm, I've been doing this for years and have found good success by doing so. Others will also have their own collection of sources, but may not be so civil.

[-] NewDark@lemmings.world 2 points 3 days ago

And Cowbee is legit the goat. One of my favorite posters for sure. Thanks for what you do. 🫡

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 days ago

Thank you comrade! 🫡

this post was submitted on 08 Dec 2025
292 points (83.0% liked)

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