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Pluribus is disappointing (Season 1 spoilers)
(hexbear.net)
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Here's a list of tons of leftist movies.
I think a lot of people are disappointed that the show isn't prescribing what they're supposed to be thinking. The snapping scene is a good example. You have this guy come in, trying to take charge, and snapping his fingers at Carol. If you're hyper aware of sexism, you might read into it that way. But then Carol stands up for herself and tells him stop doing it, then snaps her fingers at him. If you're hyper aware of racism, you see a rich white lady bossing around a brown guy. To which you get Manny's sarcastic white person smile and saying please. So is it explicitly about sexism or racism? Not really. It just throws that scene at you and it's up to you to decide what you're looking at.
Judging by Bince's comments about the show, like purposefully making it slow and drawn out, the ambiguity is intentional. He doesn't want to make a show that you write an essay about "The Subtle Fascism of the Others" and everyone agrees. He wants you to see that it's okay to think about stuff without getting a solid answer from the creator that it's okay to think what you're thinking. Some people would view that as a waste of time. It either means the show is unwilling to take the correct stance on certain issues or that it's unwilling to interrogate its own premises. With a lack in clarity about what the show is supposed to be doing, people will just fill in their own ideas. Hence why we had a debate in the first few threads about whether or not the hivemind is supposed to represent communism. The creators conscious intention seems to be fighting against internet-ification of media, next to providing a work program for Rhea.
If anything it's definitely a throwback to the 2006-2014 era of prestige TV.
Personally, I would prefer more sci-fi stuff happening. It was so hard fighting my own preconception of the show as sci-fi thriller. I just want twists and quick pay-offs and more world-building around this hivemind concept.
I don't know, the premise is really fucked up if we consider that
CW: Sexual violence
Having sex or forcing the plurb to do something you want is tantamount to removed/coercion of the individual, so Carol is aremoved which I think is really difficult to do for a TV protagonist, especially if the intention was not to make a dark horse TV antihero that Bravo Vince has done over and over again.It was kinda excusable for the first time because it seemed like the plurb was manipulating carol at her most vulnerable and isolated but then she decides to threaten killing manousos who could very well have had the cure for undoing the plurb so she could then sexually assault a (previously married) west Asian woman who is very much sick with a disease that strips her of consent and that will kill most of humanity and permanently stagnate it. Manousos calls her out on this but I think he should have called her a "violadora" (R-word) tbh (it would fit with what he views the plurb as a sickness that's taken over people) instead of a corny "girl or the world" (Especially when he sees the grave she's made for helen)
I think the show writers chickened out on this and then tried to do a corny ass "the team is working together" at the end which rubbed me the wrong way entirely.
The eco-fascism alarm bells of Pluribus is ringing too close for comfort.
Isn't Zosia Polish? She mentioned that she loved mango ice cream from after the fall of the Berlin wall and saw ships around Gdánsk. The West Asian woman you're referring to (AFAIK she was in Algeria so North Africa actually
) doesn't appear again and she had a darker skin tone than Zosia.
Oh crap I forgot. Also thanks for mentioning the Berlin wall thing since that's another pointer to the shows anticommunism, like even more explicitly so.
I think people are overthinking and/or rushing to judgement on limited information when it comes to the consent criticism. Even if they weren't joined, what does Zosia being married before have to do with her entering a new relationship? Is not being monogamous a moral failing? Of course not. Some people aren't into that. As for the plurb, there is no ownership even in sex or relationships. There is no more monogamy. At the same time there is nothing but monogamy because it's one entity with 8 billion appendages. Do the bodies belong to the individual mind that once inhabited it (or still do but are networked to every other mind. if that's the case then no consent problem)? How does that work? Why does a specific mind own a specific body? What about the people who don't have bodies anymore like Helen? Her mind is in there. Is Helen existing within the body of Zosia problem? Or have we moved passed everything relatable and normal to our understanding of humanity that new rules need to be invented?
The plurb have a biological imperative to be happy and make others happy. They will say yes to just about any request unless it directly gets in the way of their imperative to spread. That's not a lack of consent, it's virtually unlimited consent. You could also describe it as a lack of social boundaries. It makes me think of Williams Syndrome. People with this issue need protection but it's from other people. Having a rare genetic disorder is about as controllable as getting infected by an alien virus in the air. It's not necessarily something that needs to be cured just because it's different from what came before it. Again, we're in a new paradigm and if we want to make consent an important issue, what about the consent of the hive? Is forcibly separating everyone morally or ethically correct than forcibly joining them? You can say yes because the joining results in human extinction through starvation. But the unjoining can just as easily result in human extinction through climate change or global war. Why is one existential threat that results from a new organization of society better than another?
Now, I think we're both giving this way more thought than the show currently deserves. The show hasn't explained anything in depth about how the plurb work. We're left to fill in the holes ourselves. Unfortunately I think that is intentional and will continue. I don't think it will ever be explained. If we ever find out that people can't be unjoined, then I would say we have to leave our own real world biases at the door because it's a new social order that will have its own contradictions and properties beyond unjoined society.
Generally, I think that if a person can't possibly withhold their consent, then providing their consent doesn't count. Much like how the plurbs can't withhold their consent to do things that are against their own interests, like giving Carol an atom bomb, it stands to reason that they also can't withhold their consent to sexual acts that, should they be able to say no, they'd otherwise say no.
I guess that gets a bit weird with the "biological imperative" thing.
Like a berry bush can't withhold it's consent to have me eat it's berries, but that's also literally how it spreads it's seeds.
Yeah but a berry bush isn't a conscious being that makes its own decisions.
True but if a hive mind takes over all of humanity is it now it's own being that has a biological imperative? Even if the bodies it inhabits once were conscious beings. I guess that question lays on whether in individuals within the Plurbs still exist and can be recovered or if they are gone and the Plurb is now the Plurb.
I could press on my particular reading but I guess the show hasn't revealed enough information to support either possibility here.
i think people take the "it's possible to disconnect from the hivemind" as meaning the former individuals are controlled puppets, rather than the drop becoming the ocean like DS9's great link and the show doesn't seem interested in doing the medium-firmness SF thing of explaining how all that works.
If Tuvix had banged somebody on voyager before janeway murdered him would we be worried about neelix and tuvok's consent for that?
i think discomfort is valid but the text isn't directly saying one way or the other and sometimes i kinda hate the lack of rigor in media studies.
I guess one thing I wonder is, if the Plurb really is just all of humanity joined together, like it isn't just an alien virus but just an actual joining of all mind across all bodies, if the collective consents to an action does that mean all bodies in the collective consent? I guess it's a hard thing to conceptualize as being with individual minds and bodies attached together.
I think the way to think about it is that it may as well be one new person who happens to be distributed across millions of bodies. This person can make their own decisions and pursues their own agenda. However, they also must make themselves and all other humans happy as a biological imperative. If you tell them that not doing something would make you sad, they have to do it. So that's why I say that when a human interacts with them, they can't really consent to anything because they have to say yes regardless.
What do you mean by bodies consenting to something? IMO consent is purely a mental thing.
Sorry I think I just worded that wrong.
Like if it really is a hive mind and not just a hive possessing people, then the bodies are part of the one mind. If it's possessing people then those people still have ownership over their bodies and the hive can't do anything with their bodies without their consent.
Or maybe I'm wording that wrong. SciFi is hard.
Yeah I get what you mean, then. That's a tricky question and I think I land on the more conservative side, the bodies ought to still belong to the individuals (despite those individuals now being subsumed) so any interaction with those bodies is violating their autonomy.
Big agree that the show isn't trying to be prescriptive about anything. I think sometimes they make decisions about how to frame the characters that work against that goal, like today Manousos came across really sinister, but it otherwise doesn't proselytize.
Wanting more world building in this kind of fiction on tv or film is always a disappointment. It’s something I’ve learned to accept but I do get very frustrated sometimes watching concept films and whatnot having to tell myself that I can’t expect answers.