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this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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Is there a way that a nation can use the same means their oppressor uses to perpetuate apartheid for the purposes of resisting apartheid and not be labeled as "terrorist"?
You're missing the point. Hamas brutally oppresses its own people, as does Israel's goverment. This is a predictably violent response from a violent group in retaliation against another violent group, and innocent people in both countries who just want to live their lives will suffer for it.
There are no good guys here. Israel is ultimately at fault for its treatment of Palestine, but that doesn't excuse Hamas tactics of executing civilians in their homes - tactics that will not work and will not bring anyone to their side.
This is going to be a long, shitty time for a lot of people and nothing will be solved. And that fucking sucks.
On a purely practical sense, ending the siege on Gaza would improve the lives of about 2 million people squeezed on a piece of land with a clean water crisis and no medical supplies. Israel, however, is unwilling to take such a step, and the stronger Hamas is, the less likely Israel is to compromise. The reality is grim, not because "either side" won't budge, but because the situation is becoming increasingly impossible.
I've always hated Hamas' tactics. They could have been a better resistance group, they could have not had an extremist idieology. And they could have stopped gambling with the lives of Gazans. All in all, Israel is an apartheid state and this the result of apartheid and decades of collective trauma.
It's interesting that you mentioned apartheid. Although the ANC did declare an armed struggle against the White regime, in fact their attacks were inconsequential and contributed nothing to the struggle. The game-changer was a concerted campaign to mobilise world opinion. It was sanctions and isolation that ended apartheid, not bullets.
Mandela insisted to the end that turning violent was instrumental to actually getting attention. He went on to say this about how ineffectual their non-violent struggle was:
“The hard facts were that 50 years of non-violence had brought the African people nothing but more and more repressive legislation, and fewer and fewer rights.” --Mandela
They were largely ignored internationally while they were peaceful.
I trust his assessment of it over yours any day.
Put another way: How long do you think most people believe the anti-Apartheid struggle went on?
I'd be willing to bet most people have no idea about the decades of resistance to increasingly repressive laws that preceded the escalation. Even those vaguely aware that Mandela's arrest happened in 1963, after the start of the sabotage operations.
They didn't get much international support until the 1970's, and that support was still fringe until the 1980's, as violence had been ramping up for two decades.
Do you remember all the hijackings that occurred in South Africa in those days? All the hostage taking, and the civilians shot in cold blood? All the bombings of shopping malls and cinemas? No? Neither do I .. because they never happened. Even in the face of massive repression, imprisonment, torture and murder of its leaders, the ANC focused their armed struggle on acts of sabotage and avoided as far as possible targeting civilians. They bombed electrical substations and oil refineries. They attacked police stations and military facilities. They never commited the barbaric acts we see today from Hamas. If they had I doubt that I, along with tens of thousands of others, would have marched in the streets demanding the release of Mandela.
You're moving goalposts. You claimed ANCs attacks were inconsequential, and now you've changed your tone to focus on civilian attacks.
Sure, they carried out fewer and smaller civilian attacks than Hamas.
There are absolutely arguments over what the most effective use of violent resistance is, and to be clear I have never claimed that Hamas' method is particularly effective, and it might very well be entirely counter-productive. What I argued was specifically against this:
But specifically to what you claimed in this latest reply, I do remember the bombing campaign that targeted a range of Wimpy burger joints during lunch hour. I do remember the regular use of limpet mines against sports venues, bus stations, shopping centres and other shops, restaurants. They were regular enough that they are one of the regular features of the 1980's evening news that was seared into my memory as a child despite growing up half a world away.
The ANC liked to pretend they didn't target civilians, but in the 90's applications were made to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee by ANC members who admitted to bombing civilians, and ANC themselves submitted a lengthy list of bombings to the TRC which also included a long list of civilian bombings that they claimed to be "uncertain" who carried out but nevertheless submitted in a longer list of their operations alongside the police and military attacks you mention. These lists are readily available.
Mandela "escaped" being tarnished by this in large part because he was in prison from years before MK escalated from sabotage to bombings, and to this day it's unclear how much he personally knew, especially about the civilian attacks. It's clear other members of the ANC leadership, like Oliver Tambo and Joe Slovo, knew, however.
Apartheid started in 1948, but segregation had existed for 40 years by then, and the fight for equal rights preceded the formal start of Apartheid.
What is clear with respect to Mandela is that he doubled down on the necessity of violence to his death and was clear that things got worse during ANCs nonviolent fight and first improved when they started fighting back. He held onto that view to his death.
ANC was founded in 1912 as segregation was just ramping up. 36 years after they were founded, Apartheid was passed.
They didn't start killing until 1976, after 64 years of the world mostly quietly ignoring them as oppression got worse and worse.
1 year after they started killing, the UN finally made the voluntary and ineffectual arms embargo binding. 8 years after they started killing, the disinvestment campaign started seriously hurting the South African economy. 13 years after they started killing, Thatcher called the ANC a terrorist organisation at the Commonwealth summit, but beside having gone from being seen as a harmless nuisance to being called terrorists by both the UK and US governments, they won the struggle 14 years after they took up arms. But 78 years after they started fighting.
As such, I'll take Mandelas words on the importance of their armed struggle over yours any day.
Are there any sanctions at all on Israel, given the fact that every major NGO and human rights org has declared them an apartheid state?
We can't do that because holocaust.
I actually now blame mostly Europe and the US by the continuation of the situation in Palestine.
It is clearly impossible to solve this from the inside (too much hate by now, too many assholes on both sides whose power rests in the assholes from the other side killing people), which is why I think the US’ and Europe’s treatement of Israel as if it’s a Developed, Democratic, Western nation, all the while it’s more akin to a Theocratic South Africa with a Russia-style leadership, is probably to blame more for this than anybody else (and I say this as an European) - they were the only ones who could have forced a peaceful resolution to this (rather than just mild criticism and no action, which is all that Europe did) by doing the same they did to South Africa, but instead they did nothing at all but hypocrite talkie-talkie (or, worse, taking sides), effectivelly endorsing the choices of the Israeli leadership and totally disenfranchising the Palestinians, prolonging this cycle - want to see who has the most blood in their hands on this, go look in the White House, Number 10, Deutsche Kanselarie, the Palace Du Eliseé and the minion-mindset national "leaders" all over Europe.
The reason even we here go around and around in circles ping-ponging blame between both sides is because both sides are dominate by assholes, so of course they both commit disgusting attrocities and there is no way they'll ever solve it themselves (it's tit-for-tat-for-tit-for-tat all the way down), so it's the international community who has the responsability to force them to do it.
Clearly the cycle cannot be broken form the inside (unless by genocide, which seems to be what the Israeli leadership is aiming for), so it's the refusal of the US and Europe to do the only thing that might solve this - treat Israel just like South Africa was treated during Appartheid and Hamas as a terrorist group (the latter of which they already do, but without he other side of the equation, to pull out the boot of the oppressor, there will keep on being people with nothing to loose that end up with Hamas so it survives ever in the worst conditions) that has kept the cycle of violence going.
Palestinians already tried a less extremist path. It didn't work, they are still mass imprisoned by Israel.
Absolutely agreed. Peaceful resistence in Israel only helped a handful of towns not have their land destroyed by the separation wall. And even then it was totally shit for them and they pay the ultimate price.
Calling the tactic of "executing civilians in their homes” a Hamas tactic carries a lot of water for Israel as they shoot missiles directly into apartment buildings as you type.
I 100% condemn attacks on non-military targets like that. I'm not trying to carry water for Israel. I just won't excuse Hamas, either.
There are no good guys in this. It's a horrible, intractable situation. And make no mistake, it's Israel's fault, due to their illegal occupation. I won't even remotely defend that. But that doesn't make any of this OK.
I didn't see this part in the linked article. I do not condone Isreal's treatment of Palestinian civilians, but I haven't seen any reports like what you wrote. Do you have an additional source so I can read up?
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/israeli-airstrike-flattened-high-rise-building-central-gaza-103807208
might have been an hour or two before you were typing this actually.
Rest assured though, this wasn't the only time, here's another https://www.businessinsider.com/videos-show-israeli-airstrikes-leveling-gaza-apartment-buildings-2021-5?op=1
No. It will invariably be called terrorism.
ANC carried out terror bombings intentionally targeting civilians too after first trying non-violent protests, then trying sabotage, then targeting military, and not getting results. And they were called terrorists as well despite certainly doing far less harm than the regime they fought, and ignoring that while civilian, the majority of their victims were voters who had an active role in continuing to vote in the regimes engaged in the oppression.
The only way to stop being labeled terrorist is to win the conflict, like the ANC.
This is not a criticism of the ANC, btw.. On a personal level I think some of their actions were deplorable, but I also think that it is fundamentally not up to any of us to judge the armed resistance of the oppressed unless we are actively fighting that oppression in better, more effective ways.
In other words: Personally, I think that anyone who is not personally at a minimum engaged in efforts to end Israeli oppression that is likely to right now be achieving more than armed Palestinian resistance has no moral standing to judge their actions.
And nobody here is.
The ANC won by mobilizing world opinion against the South African regime. The armed struggle was inconsequential and contributed nothing to ending apartheid.
Mandela disagreed with you, and maintained to the end that it was essential in mobilizing support. They got little attention until they ramped up.
The engaged in non-violent resistance against increasingly oppressive laws for decades with no support or attention, and achieving nothing. In fact Apartheid was put in place during, not before, that non-violent resistance, that was how little it achieved. The sanctions first started after ANC and others raised the stakes and violence started rattling the regime into escalation that caught attention.
However, whether or not it was effective is irrelevant to the argument I made, which is that unless you provide a better solution, you're not in a position to judge how they fight back.
Why is this comment being downvoted?
Because people don't understand that violence is necessary at times.
When you're violently oppressed for decades while exhausting all peaceful options it gets to a point where you only have violent options left. Especially when the actual govt does fuck all to help you.
I agree in general but not THIS. Kidnapping, raping, and murdering random civilians, besides being monstrously evil, does not accomplish any goals.
When you're cornered with no options, do you lay down and give up, or do you lash out indiscriminately without worrying how it will look or stop to rationally assess whether it will help?
You can't take away people's other options and then blame them when their reactions gets increasingly extreme, because doing so inherently favours the oppressors.
Yeah I can.
Hamas attacked IDF soldiers - regrettable, but it's war. No one is really talking about that.
Hamas did these acts of indiscriminate barbarism - total condemnation. And rightly so. These are war crimes, and sickening ones.
They are war crimes.
At the same time it's unreasonable to believe this won't be the consequence eventually when you impose apartheid and carry out war crimes for decades.
As long as Israel maintains its illegal occupation and maintains it's apartheid, and continue their own war crimes (including settlements - annexing occupied land is a war crime as well) it's sheer hypocrisy to focus on the Palestinians desperate response, the same way it was when some focused on ANCs bombings of civilians rather than on the systematic oppression that created the situation in the first place.
Blaming the victim for punching the bully back is indirectly defending the bully, who in this case has a far higher death toll on their conscience.
You call that poor scared murdered girl a bully?
I called Israel a bully, and you know that full well.
And the far larger numbers of poor scared murdered children they've left behind makes me unwilling to blame anyone but the occupier and the perpetrator of apartheid who has created the situation in the first place.
In other words, if you blame anyone but Israel for what happens in this conflict, you're part of perpetuating the situation causing this.
Why can't we blame everyone who has murdered innocent civilians? Why do we have to blame one of the sides that has murdered innocent civilians, and hold the other side that has murdered innocent civilians blameless?
I blame all of the brutish, sadistic murderers on both sides. They're all terrible.
Because one side creates the situation and is the sole party with the power to end it, and the other side is in an utterly desperate situation stripped of other realistic means of fighting back, and it's unreasonable to hold the oppressed and the oppressor to the same standard because that inherently favours the oppressor.
And because it's wildly hypocritical when most of us live in countries that actively supports the oppressor and takes no step to stop it.
That doesn't mean it's not awful, and a war crime, but the blame lies on Israel for each and every death on both sides as long as they maintain their apartheid regime and their illegal occupation.
That is fucking unhinged
Abuser theory. "Look at what you made me do!"
The abuser in this case being Israel, and its decades of crimes, yes, Israel loves that excuse when the Palestinians fight back
I'm going to block you now, given that you choose insults as a response to pointing out Israeli war crimes and decades of human rights abuse. Talking of "unhinged", I've also reported your vile personal attack.
The Resistance Française would've been labelled "terrorists" by the current standards.
Hamas sets up military operations in a civilian building by force - the civilians have no say in this and get killed if they protest Hamas then uses that building to launch rockets, store ammunition, communication stations How the fuck should Israel proceed to neutralize those sites? Because what they do is:
“Roof knocking”: Hitting the building’s roof with a small explosive to announce that it will fall in 15 minutes (see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teevWpXlRZY example from yesterday) Automatic SMS and phone calls impacted areas warning and urging to evacuate Precision strikes that make the building fall vertically with minimal damage to the areas As a result, civilians (and potentially military personnel) are given a chance to evacuate while ammunition stashes, rocket launching stations etc stay in the building and are destroyed.
To be honest, I’m shocked those protocols are still used after Hamas’s attack. I would absolutely not be surprised of these measures stopped.
The anti-Israel don’t care that Israel is bending over backwards to minimize human suffering while fighting a decades long war against people who are deliberately trying to kill their children.
Remember how upset they are when Israel does something 100 percent defensive, like build a security fence to keep out an endless stream of suicide bombers?
This isn’t good-faith criticism.
These people hate Israel for this that they works be applauding other countries for. And we all know why
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