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this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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There was a joke on Rick and Morty that Rick got the Palestinians and the Israelis to sign the treaty of "peace plan that works if you think about it a bit".
I am sure every commenter has one of those plans in their back pocket that would work if implemented. The problem is there is no incentive. In Palestinine, Hamas grows stronger the more Palestinians hate Isreal, and their opposition grows stronger the more Palestinians want peace. Meanwhile Likud grows stronger the more Israelis hate Palestinians, and the opposition grows stronger when Israelis want peace. Why would either side implement something that would decrease their power?
The sad thing is that the people dying for this usually aren't anywhere remotely near the level of the people that have power to lose or keep. Dying for the sake of rich assholes all the way down
Yeah, there's another quote in Rick and Morty: "Everyone is trying to take over the galaxy, the trick is to be left alone by whoever wins."
I think it's sad how Gaza is apparently blockaded by Israel. I'm not sure if the people there are literally being held captive, but if that's the case then I can definitely understand their frustration and the lengths they would go to in order to fight back.
If they're allowed to leave, I think they should've just done that. It's never easy, but unfortunately would be the best option in an imperfect world.
*looks west to Egypt. hmmm
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The only way that is solve is from the outside.
Which means treating Israel as Appartheid South Africa was treated, and Hamas as a terrorist group.
However only the last part is done, so the result is every day in Palestine people are born who will live under the boot of Israel and eventually feel they have nothing to loose because of Israel and Israelis, and join Hamas to fight the oppressor, because it's only way to do something with a lifetime of anger and because even being part of a Hamas deemed a terrorist organisation all over the world and limited in their action, status and wealth by it, is still better than a "nothing to loose" situation.
The refusal of Europe and the US to also force the one with the most to lose - Israel - to pull back the boot that's making all those "nothing to loose, desperate and angry" alongside their attempt at making Hamas an unappeling option is what has kept the cycle of violence going.
The blood is mainly on the hands of the US leaders and a number of European leaders because they're the only ones who could stop this (since they're the only ones with the power to stop both sides at the same time, which is the only way to sort this out) and they most certainly have the kind of bright and well informed advisers who would have pointed it out to them, and instead have endorsed Israel's strategy of "tire the Palestineans till they give up and leave", in other words, endorsing genocide.
This. Peace cannot come unless the civilians on both sides are loudly and forcefully willing to die rather than kill civilians on the other side. The problems can only be solved on an individual level.
This is by design. I guarantee Israeli money gets funneled to Hamas so Hamas can in turn attack Israel then Israel retaliates with far far more force as usual, so on so forth.
The easiest way to get rid of Palestine when you have every major super powers backing is to simply cause then to attack you and win a war of attrition, subjugation, annexation, absorbtion and either erasure or outright propagandizing the entire thing. Like the US and Canada have done with native Americans.
I'm not a supporter of Israel but do you have any source that supports this speculation? Seems irresponsible to bandy it about.
Other than the fact that Hamas was explicitly created by Israel to feed a secular v non secular Palestinian fued? They deny it but everyone knows they're lying because the Israeli army quite literally stepped aside or left when they showed up.
My knowledge on Hamas amounts to the first half of their Wikipedia page so I'd love to learn some more about their. While I can Google their name I'm going to get some weirdly biased shit that will probably contradict itself quickly. Got any suggestions for sources I can read up on to learn more about Israel's influence there?
You probably talking about this article
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn't want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.
See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be "attacking Islam." Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?
It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren't that simple. It's entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would've lasted longer and Afghanistan might've been another Chechnya.
At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.
We can say that places that aren't Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn't create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn't exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn't a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.
Poor take buddy, the us didnt create al queda no. They did however push enough Intel and weapons into their hands they became the regional power for a time.
There is cause and effect and you can't ignore any of it especially the result regardless of if it was intentional or simply poorly thought out.
Well there's the fact that Israel legitimately got Hamas started in the first place because it hampered the Palestinian left in their efforts to combat the settlements.
There absolutely were resistance groups all the way up to 1960 boss, they just got called terrorists at that point. Less bloodletting? The native school system in Canada has hundreds of thousands of deaths on it's hands and mass graves get discovered like legit every year.
There absolutely is a systemic attempt to exterminate native populations in the United States, go to a reservation and you'll change your tune real real fuckin fast.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars
Educate yourself.
This one is a particularly gripping episode in history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nez_Perce_War
Sure, but not for the reason you gave.