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NYC pro-Palestine rally splits Democrats over Israel
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this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2023
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Nope, I never said that. I simply said that Hamas is not the bad guys. What I’m saying is that this idea that there is a binary of “good guys” and “bad guys” is a bullshit narrative believed by naive people that only read propaganda like this story.
For what it’s worth, Israel specifically targets land with civilians on it that they want to settle, blow it up, then claim boogie man “Hamas” did it. They’ve been doing it for DECADES. We’re talking occupied apartment buildings, hospitals, schools…and somehow it never gets covered by the western media. Go look at death and injury statistics for the area. Even western sources will tell you that the Israeli forces are way more brutal than Hamas could ever hope to be.
This isn’t a big surprise to anybody who has observed this conflict for more than a single news cycle.
Indeed. Israel is also in the position of power here. They can choose to start towards a lasting peace but they want all the land instead. Hamas is a symptom of this
Israel tried for a lasting peace a few decades ago. They were rebuffed at the last minute by the PLO. Since then, the PLO has been replaced by Hamas. Hamas' goal, which they've outright stated, is to drive all the Jews into the sea. How do you negotiate with people who want to murder you?
I'm an American Jew and have seen Nazis marching with the swastika flag flying. I've had a person tell me (to my face, knowing that I'm Jewish) that "the only thing Hitler did wrong was not finishing the job." How would you have me negotiate with someone like that?
I'm not claiming that Israel is blameless. Far from it. However, trying to justify attacks like this with "but Israel did X" is minimizing the horror of what was done. Had Hamas attacked military or governmental targets, I'd agree that it was a valid reply to actions Israel has taken. Killing random civilians (many, but not all of whom were Israeli), though, is nowhere near justified by "but Israel did X."
I also won't claim to know the solution to this situation. If I did, I'd be a Nobel Prize winning diplomat and not a small time web developer. I can only describe the situation as I see it. Palestinian groups attack due to (partly) the treatment they're receiving. In return, Israelis, in fear for their safety, elect firebrand politicians who clamp down hard on the Palestinians to prevent future attacks. Mix in some Palestinians who want to kill all Jews and some Israelis (like the settlers) who think all Palestinian land should just be seized for Israel (and who do so) and the pressure/temperature ramps up more and more. Repeat over and over again.
In the short term, Israel is going to retaliate and I can't say that I blame them. I hope they restrict their retaliation to Hamas targets and not civilian ones. Any high ground Israel has from this attack would be instantly lost if they responded exactly in kind. In the long term, we need some diplomats of serious skill to unwind this mess, turn the temperature down, and get both sides talking instead of attacking.
Israel replaced the PLO by supporting hamas
The Palestinians voted in Hamas. You can't blame Israel for the votes of the Palestinians.
It should be noted, though, that Hamas has since cancelled elections. So I'd no longer consider them the rightful rulers of the Palestinian people. Not until free and fair elections are held.
Of course, conflict with Israel is what Hamas wants. Their goal is to push Israel into the sea. If Israel strikes back hard against Hamas' actions, Hamas will spin it with their people as "support us against those evil Israelis." Meanwhile, the right wing elements in Israel don't want peace because they get political power when the people fear they'd be under attack.
I should also point out one more factor in this mess: evangelical Christians in the US. They believe that Jesus will come back when 1) Jews control Israel and 2) Israel is hit with a huge attack. The first part is there. The second part depends on peace not being achieved. If Biden sent a diplomat that was able to magically untangle this mess and forge a lasting peace, the "Jesus returns due to an attack on Israel" possibility would drop to zero. (Well, technically, the chance of an attack would drop. No comment on the "attack on Israel causes Jesus to return" part.)
The evangelicals are huge contributors to the settlers (who take over Palestinian land and then demand that Israel protect them since they are Israeli citizens). The settlers inflame tensions, making attacks more likely. The evangelicals don't care about the Israeli citizens who would suffer from any attack. They think that any Christians in Israel would be pulled to heaven by Jesus and the Jews/Muslims would be tossed into hell. They are mucking in international politics and pushing for violence based solely on trying to get Jesus to return.
Exactly.
Palestinians have rejected peace deal after peace deal for the better part of a century, and have never ONCE offered a solution to this situation that didn't spell the death of Israel.
The idea that Israel had the power to end this is just demonstrably false.
Reducing it to a binary is the incorrect analogy.
The needle of responsibility in this conflict definitely leans toward Hamas.
Every Palestinian civilian death, every displacement, every house bombed, every western country, like Austria, who withdrew support, the imminent reoccupation of the region, it's all on Hamas.
They really really hung themselves on the world stage with this one, they had some excellent PR going too.