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About 100,000 turn out in London for pro-Palestine rally
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2023
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Exactly this. People are oversimplify the whole story. In my opinion there's 2 camps of people who currently supports Palestine.
They just don't know the historical background and don't know specifically -what- Hamas did the 7th, nor the huge support Hamas has in Palestine. (to clarify, A TERROR GROUP that has SUMMER CAMPS where they train kids to become terrorists).
They support them because they enjoy jews getting killed.
Concidering how the rich arab countries has reacted during their neighbour's times of need earlier: closing borders and not caring, group number 2 seems likely.
Just picture that the Palestinians actually celebrate Hamas terrorist attack, they feel joy over the actions many of us now have seen on videos and they celebrate it even in the streets in Western countries.
Imagine that 57% of Palestinians supports Hamas and 50% are against the idea of peace, 71% supports PIJ (Islamic Jihad), all while Biden won his election with 51%, Obama won with 53%, George Bush won in 1989 by 53%, last time any president got more votes than the support Hamas has in Palestine was in 1984, 39 years ago! Source about Palestinians support.
That's how enormous the support of Hamas is, and some of ya'll are defending them. You need to watch the videos released of the atrocities Hamas committed, see the actions that you're defending, but I bet you don't even have the stomachs for it.
What about the group that's aware that Palestinians were forced out of their homes and have been forced to live in impoverished conditions for decades?
What about the group that recognizes the actions of both sides as being wrong and that neither side is "right"?
They'll be ignored because all Israelis know what the state's endgame is here and all its horrible implications.
There are many Israelis fighting hard to protect civilian lives, both in Gaza and the West Bank. You should look up B'Tselem. Quite a few of their activists got arrested over the last few days for peacefully protesting the bombing campaign.
Oh yes I'm not justifying israels expansion at all, israel isn't some completely innocent toddler sitting in a corner. It's however very interesting that you're excusing the recorded actions that has showed up online though, the rape, the murders, the torture, the executions of whole families in their homes, because "israel also did bad!".
I feel no empathy for those who affiliates themselves, supports, and/or celebrates it. Those actions regardless of the reason or source are absolutely fucking despicable. They specifically targetted civilians instead of soldiers, police, or people in the government. They went in to specifically kill anybody that couldn't defend themselves simply for being jewish, and living in Israel. Watch the clips again and then tell me "Oh yeah well what about....."
Nobody is exusing anything. Shelling cities and blowing up residential buildings Is bad. So is raping and murdering civilians.
Most of us just want the violence to stop on both sides. Hamas was a side effect of Israel's oppression. Same as most other terrorist groups and gangs. Everyone is doing awful things and it just needs to fucking stop.
Of course, war is hell and this will never end well for anybody. Check the statistics I linked though and you'll find that 50% of Palestinians don't want peace as long as israel exist. How would any sort of peace be established if half of the entire population is against it? The Jews and the Muslims have been in conflict with eachother over Jerusalem since the 1800's. As Jewish people moved into the city at an increasing rate the Muslims and jews started murdering eachother. The atrocities have been aweful from both sides for soon 150 years, long before Israel even existed and sadly now after this terrorist attack, it will probably end up as "just Israel".. I hope any innocent civilian have the ability to get out of there before things really escalates.
However, to come back to my original point, you'll never find compilations online of israelian soldiers doing the same things that the beloved Hamas did, and if they wouldve, you would never see Jewish people celebrate the rapes and murders of children and women.
Anybody here can say whatever they want, it's beyond disgusting to see the amount of support and celebrations that was going on during the 7th october attack and the total lack of reaction from the rest of the world regarding it. Grow some fucking balls and condemn the celebrations. I'll never have the urge to help anybody that approves of and/or celebrates the things shown in those videos.
From your link:
That does not support your claim, because people were not asked about what you claim, and it's grossly dishonest to suggest they answered based on your characterization.
The question is two-pronged, asking both whether Hamas should change their demands and then narrowing the possible solution down to one specific peace alternative that we know many Palestinians would be deeply unhappy with, given that it would mean substantial territorial concessions and might well also have been interpreted as largely giving up the very thorny right of return demand.
Nothing in this question asks people to agree or disagree to "peace as long as Israel exist".
A more reasonable interpretation is that half of Gazans are support substantial concessions before even starting any negotiations by expressing support for a kind of peace that'd involve the Palestinian side giving up on big territorial claims from the outset.
When you misrepresent the numbers this way, why should anyone listen to you?
Your comments are rife with false dichotomies, strawmen, and general fabrications. If that's what you need to make your points, you might want to look at your stance critically and ask yourself some hard questions.
It's cute when someone posts claims contradicted by their own source. The link actually says that "57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas".
Consider that while Hamas is a terrorist organisation it also runs social programs, exactly to effectively buy this kind of support. For some poor family in Gaza struggling to survive it's unsurprising that if given handouts by Hamas that some will express that kind of muted positive views even for a dictatorial regime that 70% of Gazans wants removed from power per the same link (see below).
To try to twist that into "supports" is victim-blaming of the worst sort.
Should we meanwhile talk about Israel, where there actually are regular elections and majorities keep voting in regimes that perpetuate an apartheid regime and commits gross crimes against humanity? Or is it only people in Gaza who are responsible for their governments actions, despite the fact that the majority of those of voting age in Gaza were not old enough to be part of the electorate that brought Hamas to power (in an election where they got a minority of votes).
Just like some are defending the mass murderous apartheid regime of Israel or try to implicate Palestinian civilians for actions they had no party in.
Meanwhile most of us think Hamas are terrorists but also recognise that Israel is an oppressive apartheid state and the only party with the power to actually end this, and yet is doubling down on crimes against humanity.
To focus on Hamas is deflection.
And plenty of Americans (probably around 50% given recent election results) would rejoice over any innocent civilian we killed in "the war on terror" and would defend war criminals in the US military. Would that make it okay to starve and bomb the entire population of the US? Is everyone in this country a war criminal?
Misinformation, stereotypes, and "Wuttabaut 'murica" galore! Truly hit the trifecta. Not really no, when war crimes have been brought up the general concensus has been jail. Don't make shit up.
Famous examples are that navy seal "Eddie Gallagher" or the 4 blackwater guys that killed 14 civilians in 2007. They were all convicted, but made the big headlines with a huge backlash after Trump pardoned them, the absolute fucking bafoon.. If clips surfaced of american soldiers comitting these actions, people would be outraged. Remember Guantanamo bay? There was a huge public backlash and push towards closing it from all sides, and there's strong support for arguing "the war" was lost because the public turned against it.
Google "american soldier jailed afghanistan" and the list of links will just keep going page by page. You'll never see any terrorist imprisoned in Palestine because of their involvement and participation in the 7th october. But yeah sure "WHAT ABOUT 'MURICANS?!?!?!"
How do you prove my point way better than I could, but still act like you made a point against me?
Like you say Trump pardoned them, and almost 50% of the country had no problem with that.
You mention guantanamo, but it's still open and nobody cares.
And not to mention things like the Hague invasion act, where the US says it will literally invade Europe if the ICC tries to bring an American to court for war crimes. And most of the US doesn't care, hell a lot fucking support that idea cuz 'murica.
And anyway you completely fucking misread my comment. I'm not saying palestine is innocent because America did bad things. Its not whattaboutism its me saying "what if this was happening to you"? What I'd some chud decided that it was fair to punish the whole USA because shitty people in your country have a lot of support.
That's the point of the comment that you so conveniently ignored.
Mate, do you believe the people that voted for Trump supported them getting pardoned? Do you believe people went out on the streets to celebrate it? Have you heard ANYBODY call the pardons and their crimes good? Of course you haven't. In Palestine, aswell as around the world by emigrated palestinians, the atrocities by hamas are celebrated and the terrorists that carried it out will never get put in court. They're heroes in their eyes.
I gave you 2 famous examples that got famous because of how big the backlash was from pardoning war crimes, and your comeback automatically is "OH FAMOUS, 50% OF AMERICANS MUSTVE LOVE IT!". You really have the worst take on everything don't you.
Yes, people do care, a major part of Obama winning the election was his promise to close Guantanamo bay but the congress refused to let it happen. There is no support among the public for it, its hated by everyone, but the government refuse to close it.
Regarding the Hague invasion act, it was created as a tool that could quickly be used without going through congress, if a situation was serious enough to seem nessicary in order to protect and secure a fair trial of all appointed officials and military personnel in any criminal court of which USA is not a member. The ACTUAL name is "The American Service-Members' Protection Act". You're actually trying to compare that, and USA that DO convict and punish their own war criminals when they catch them, with Palestine that celebrates them? Aight. Cool.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's just a terrible point because regardless of the situation I would be in, I WOULD NEVER CELEBRATE, SUPPORT, AND TAKE JOY OUT OF SEEING KIDS, WOMEN, AND INNOCENT CIVILIANS GETTING RAPED, TORTURED, AND EXECUTED BY A TERRORIST GROUP. Then we have absolute tools like you trying to minimize it 🤡
And on the topic of punishing the whole country, do you believe it was wrong to put punishing demands on Germany after WW2? Was it unfair to make the nation pay for the damages they've inflicted? Was it wrong to put trading embargos on entire Russia because Putin decided the war with Ukraine had to happen? Of course not.
100% if for no other reason than because Trump did it.
Yes, the typical Trump sycophants on social media when it happened. They LOVED the fact that non MAGA cultists were upset by it.
It might be a bad take but cant be the WORST take as you keep giving out takes.
Yeah people care so much no one did anything about it, and you definitely know theres no public support for it because....?
Great argument that completely refutes the point that the content of the law says the US will literally invade a sovereign country if the ICC tries to put an American on trial for war crimes. Is there any more purely semantic arguments you would like to make in lue of a substantial argument?
You are literally as thick as pig shit, mate. Its like trying to talk reason to a crying toddler. You only parse the parts you want to read.
No you dont, you understand it about as well as one of my shits understands quantum chromodynamics. And I could sit here and try to explain it to you but I dont think I have the patience or finger paints needed in order to do so. And even if I did, you're so invested in your stupid take that you wouldnt except anything I say and justy continue arguing for the sake of arguing like the fucking redditor you are.
But youre fine to minimise collective punishment, bombing hospitals, killing women, children, unarmed civilians, journalists and aid workers because slightly more than half the population voted for Hamas many years ago?
For my own mental health I refuse to believe anyone is this genuinely stupid. So im just going with the more likely option that you're just another shitty troll that likes to make decidely stupid and edgy comments that get lots of downvotes and hate replys because thats the only way you're able to get the attention you so desperately desire.
Yes. Hell even at the time we knew it was bad because Hitlers rise to power was almost a direct result of the punishments imposed on Germany after WW1 and the Weirmar republic. Thats why West Germany got tons and tons of aid to be rebuilt, more help and aid than France and the UK got in fact.
The last time any election was held in Gaza most of the people weren't even old enough to vote. And despite your efforts to smear the people as bloodthirsty your own link says the majority did not want to break the cease fire.
The very same source also explains:
Massive support for various terrorist groups, one of them reaching 74%
50% of the population don't want peace with Israel.
Think it's hard to twist that into anything other than being bloodthirsty for Israeli blood.
Firstly, they've not been asked whether they support them. If you're going to link surveys, maybe don't actively misrepresent what they say.
The very same link also shows 70% want the PA to take over power in Gaza. Some "support".
An occupied population has a legal right under international law to engage in armed resistance against their occupier, so why is this surprising? A brutally oppressive apartheid state engaged in extensive war crimes and crimes against humanity does not have a right to an expectation that the other side want peace when they continue that oppression.
If Israel shows that it is willing to take Palestinian concerns seriously and Palestinians still don't want peace, then you'd have an argument. As it is, it's grossly unjustified to demand of the Palestinian population that they should be ready to surrender.
Sure if you remove all context.
Can you blame em after being bombed and oppressed for 70 years?
Every single person there has never known a time of peace.
If you think hating Palestinians is justified because of support for Hamas while they do terrible things, do you also think it is justified to hate Israel for the inhumanity the Israeli government (which has the support of the Israeli people) has perpetuated since Israel was brought into the region?
Ah yes, the solution to all the murder is even more murder!
If you have to lie to make your point, maybe you should reconsider how valid your point is.
It's simple, don't steal their houses, encroach on their land, fracture their community into an archipelago divided by walls, and put checkpoints every two miles, and restrict trade. Don't do any of that, especially don't do it while preaching about genocide and the holocaust and then asking for hand outs. Then I wouldn't care, and might even support israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba?wprov=sfla1
This why Palestinians hate Israel, Israel literally destroyed their country.
Also pretty fucking rich to dig elections from 17 years ago where Israel supported Hamas to delegitimize other groups so people like you would be fooled.
Just to clarify, being antifascist necessitates being against fascism of all kinds, not just the ones who are your enemy.
Not to imply that the IDF are being fascist, but genocide is a likely outcome, whether ideologically intentional or incidental.
At the end of the day, this is a language game. Personally, I don't care for the semantics of it all. I'm honestly quite anti-semantic.
You forgot another important point: the absolute majority of Muslims will defend Palestine, no matter what they do. You risk being reprimanded in your Muslim community if you aren't 100 % pro Palestine and often also when you aren't pro Hamas. It has become part of their identity.