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this post was submitted on 21 Jun 2023
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No kidding. Who is honestly against moves like this? I mean very few issues are black and white and defending Ukraine is as close to being on the right side of history as one can get. They were invaded by a much larger country that suppressed them for so long. They are a democracy that is trying really hard to further the will of their people. Russians are committing genocide against the local population. Supporting Ukraine and watching the Ukrainians fight back for their freedom is one of the few great parts of history that inspires.
The only real country that comes close to Russia lately as far as a polarizing bad guy is WWII Germany, and THAT is saying something.
Says every single chickenhawk in this country every time there's a war. There is always an excuse.
Vietnam: They attacked us in the Gulf of Tonkin (which was false) and we have to fight communism!
Iraq 1983: We have to help Saddam Hussein defeat Iran. It's the right thing to do!
Iraq 2003: They did 9/11 and they have WMD's! (They didn't.) We killed a few hundred thousand Iraqis anyway just to make Halliburton a shit-ton of money.
Afghanistan: The Taliban is evil! (True, but that doesn't mean we should go bankrupt policing them permanently.)
And it's only a matter of time before any justifications for Ukraine blow up in your faces too. There's already been a ton of reporting on the corruption in the Ukrainian government this year. We'll learn more about that as we get even further entrenched into this war.
You should ask yourself then, why all these wars had insanely large protests, both in the US but especially in Europe. Also why most political parties and many countries in Europe opposed those wars. And why this war in Ukraine is different.
These previous wars were american imperialism, while this Ukraine war is about stopping russian imperialism. Stopping russian imperialism isnt only the moral thing(like it was opposing those previous american wars) but also aligns with our geopolitical interests. Thats why literally everyone but tankies/far right support helping Ukraine.
So let me ask you, what do you think we should do? Should we let Russia invade and take over Ukraine? Should we let Russia invade and take over the Baltic Countries? What about Russia taking over Poland? Are countries sovereign and do they have the right to decide their foreign policy?
In 5 years, Turkey might decide to grab a few greek islands, in order to get some "breathing space" in the Aegean. Should we let Turkey do that? Is it ok for countries to invade other countries and grab whatever they want? I am just trying to understand your logic.
Should we never oppose invaders in order to minimize cost and human casualties?
Except that in this case the situation really is black and white, no grey area. A peaceful sovereign country was invaded by some genocidal fucks and it is our duty to help them. Corruption is not an excuse to stop the support, because Ukraine is actively trying to sort it out too. They know what life is like in the EU and they want more of that.
For the record, I live in EU, some 60 miles from the nearest russian military base. I have personal interest in Ukraine's victory because if it falls, then my country might be next.
Yup, no gray area at all, just like every other time. This is exactly what the warhawks said about the war on terror.
Why do you have to bring whataboutism into this? I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about this current war right now. It's extremely clear who are the good guys here.
Yeah yeah, just like you all claimed it was "extremely clear who are the good guys here" when you genocided Iraq.
Maybe you should talk about the past, so you stop repeating it.
Except if you actually lived in Russia in the 80-90's moved to the west, saw the life here and look where putler is going towards with his so called "rule of law", you would actually understand why it matters to stop that idiot. Out of the two clearly both evil, self serving entities of Nato or Russia, I know under which I would much rather live, even if neither is perfect.
Corruption happens everywhere, look at a UK, scandal after scandal, after scandal, do those involved in scandals resign? You wish they did, no those cocks cling on to power like a bad std. Only recently we had a string of relatively high profile resignation which had to be forced.
Sorry ranted on, but really the problem is that putlers regime is actually evil, Ukranians are dying to protect the rest of Europe from them. So paying for sending weapons to them is the least that I think I can personally do. For America it is better to stop putler before he attacks a Nato country and you would have to send your soldiers on the ground here.
(By the way, I agree with your Iraq statement, it was always about resources, and so is this war for putler, just look where "conveniently" gas deposits were found in 2012....)
You're right, what excuses do the Russian invaders have for Ukraine? It sure blew up in their faces. And I hope it continues to until the invaders return to their miserable little circle of hell thry built for themselves.
Ahhh, it's the extremely rare false equivalence fallacy in the wild.
What has corruption got to do with Russia invading them?
It has to do with our leaders funneling our tax dollars through their war, obv.
If you'd been paying attention you'd notice that since 2014 the Ukrainians have been modernising there political and military. The previous governments were infamously corrupt and were dislodged by a popular uprising. This government has made great strides to uproot systemic corruption. It's not perfect but they are certainly improving and need to be encouraged in this and their efforts to dislodge the Russian invaders. Simply parroting Russian talking points (eg: corruption) will not do.
Lol. Someone hasn't read the Pandora papers.
The money goes to the American military industrial complex. We aren't writing Ukraine a check for them to make/buy the weapons themselves. Ukraine will receive the weapons, while the weapon manufacturers, here in the USA, laugh their way to the bank.
You have a right to be upset at our military budget and how it's spent, but when you are so grossly negligent on how our government functions nobody is going to take you seriously.
So what is the alternative? Let bigger countries invade other countries, just because no country is perfect enough to receive outside help?
America will always fight wars because their interests in resources, political alliances, and ideological stability. It's for the money. It's always the money at the end.
America is the cultural and military hegemon due to the proliferation of free trade enforced through an unmatched navy. America becomes more powerful by maintaining this status quo. It's why dangers to the oil supply have driven 3 out of the 4 examples you rightfully point out. Sadly the Middle East is the oilbasket of the world with the worst borders ever designed. If you want energy, you spread influence there.
However, there is one instance where the interests of the USA align with the general interest of the average Westerner.
People don't like democracies getting invaded. And potential democratic trade partners getting invaded is bad for business. You can have both at the same time. I will not defend the Gulf War under this banner, but the faster that we can prove that land grabs are nonnegotiable in this Pax Americana, the better.
And also, you don't have to convince me that war is inefficient. I've read Catch-22. But you do have to convince me that the destabilization of the breadbasket of Europe (and the world) is less important than the opportunity cost of a couple million lost to a few hundred corrupt officials.