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Gaza says Israel's strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people
(www.reuters.com)
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this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
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The sad thing to me is that I don't think either government genuinely cares about the 195 deaths except as political leverage on Hamas's side and 195 fewer problems in Netanyahu's way.
I really struggle to see what leverage Hamas gains by fudging their numbers. It feels like a talking point to reduce the fatality count.
This number, half this number, quarter this number... the political reality is the same. Murmurs of condemnation while the US keeps the money pump going, Israel keeps commiting war crimes, and Palestine shrinks into nothing.
It's mostly to make their own people more sympathetic to their cause, I'd imagine.
Says who? Of course the number of deaths is relevant.
Doesn't seem to be relavent to the world, as Israel is still massacring people and the world stands and watches.
The world is not who this propaganda is meant for, though convincing outsiders of their cause is probably a welcome side-effect
Intent is the difference between collateral damage and massacres. Israel is attacking military targets that Hamas hides among Gazan civilians. Hamas attacks civilians for the sake of murdering and kidnapping civilians. It's wild how many here seem to be keen on supporting the genocidal underdogs simply because they are underdogs.
Israel has been occupying Palestine, killing innocent civilians and stealing their lands decades before Hamas was even a thing.
That's certainly the Palestinian perspective. Then, as now, there are consequences to declaring war against one's neighbor and losing, then remaining belligerent for 70 years while refusing to negotiate for a viable peace. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, proving in hindsight that unilateral withdrawal is a bad idea for them in this conflict, given recent events.
No, that's the perspective of anyone with common sense.
You don't negotiate for peace with some that occupies you and wants to give you a smaller piece of your land.
Did you expect the native Americans to just give away their land?
Do you expect Ukraine to give away their land? If Russia won their war on Ukraine, will the world be like "Heh, they won, Ukraine in Russian now."? The answer is no.
Then current trends will continue and they will likely end up with less and less until they have nothing. Palestine has no viable path to military victory, it takes more than outrage to win wars. One ignores the realpolitik of their situation at their own peril.
They lost their ancestral lands and have since pacified themselves, because war with the US is unwinnable. Today they have freedom of movement, freedom of return, and full US citizenship. Compare this to how Gaza is faring today.
Ukraine still has a viable path to conventional military victory against Russia.
They would eventually do exactly this, but I think Ukraine will win. Borders have changed massively throughout human history and eventually the new ones get recognized, because most countries don't ignore the realpolitik of one's situation like Palestine has.
Israeli settlers already kill Palestinians and steal their land, there's no peace with Israel.
It seems like you suggest people should not fight for their freedom and land and should just give up. That's a very cowardly point of view.
And yeah obviously Ukraine can still win, because the entire world is helping them, the world is also helps Israel and turns a blind on the massacres happening in Palestine.
Sounds like Hamas, look what that way of thinking is getting them.
As a general rule, no. When said people don't have a viable path to victory through combat, yes.
The reason they don't have freedom? All the fighting.
The reason they are have lost and continue to lose land? All the fighting.
It's almost like Ukraine and Palestine are wildly different and don't behave in similar ways or have similar motivations. Ukraine, like Israel, is fighting for its safety from a hostile enemy that is unwilling to make viable compromises. If they were slaughtering and kidnapping civilians and parading them around Kiev, and had been launching guerilla attacks on, say, Poland, for the last century we might not be supporting them.
The reason occupied people don't have freedom is because they're fighting for it?
Don't say more you are from Portland. We can meet eachother and mod some discord while eating pizza
You think entire city blocks bombed and leveled to the ground, entire families just disappearing from existence is not enough to sympathize, so they need to fake the numbers?
Sorry to be replying so late, (original poster of the post that generated all these comments here) but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You're right that entire families disappearing probably will get more people to sympathise. That was my original point. Hamas wants innocent Palestinians dead just as much as Israel does. Whether they'll fudge numbers to move that needle up or not is not really important at that point: some people just feel like in the face of that political reality, is it really so unlikely that they'll do so?
According to world organizations, the ministry of health's numbers were accurate enough before, so they considered it to be reliable.
However, it is important to emphasize that Israel is bombing civilian buildings and ambulances, because some brain dead people still think Hamas is doing that.
Also, if we're gonna argue about how many thousands of innocent civilians and children have died and saying stuff like "It's not 9000 civilians, it's actually less", as if less thousand of civilian casualties is OK, then we lost our humanity.
Feels like you're conflating all the Israel-Hamas issues together. None of that is relevant to what I said (maybe the first sentence is?) and I agree with most of it.
Who's talking about sympathizing? I'm talking about joining them. It takes a bit more than sympathy for victims to become a terrorist.
When someone bombs your home, your entire neighborhood, and kills your entire family, you don't need someone to convince you to fight back.
That applies to every single person there, does it? What are you even talking about lmao
Everyone in Palestine has been suffering from Israel for literally decades. Nobody needs fake numbers to fight the oppressors.
By that logic, every single person there should be a terrorist. Tell me, are they?
You got it backwards. Palestine people are fighting for their freedom against their oppressors.
Backwards? As opposed to fighting for freedom from people they are oppressing, you mean?