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this post was submitted on 02 Nov 2023
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Sacrificing significant numbers of your own soldiers to save enemy civilians sounds noble, and would make a great movie, but would deeply hurt morale, be politically unpopular, and fundamentally weaken Israel's ability to defend itself from hostile enemies on all sides. It would be both handing a victory to the enemy you are at war with, and justifying the use of further human shields to repeat this winning strategy. Ironically, your concern for civilians over your own people would likely put far more future civilians at risk.
If Yahweh or Allah existed and cared I suspect they would have weighed in by now.
They certainly aren't trying to maximize civilian casualties; given their capabilities they could kill civilians a lot more effectively were that their goal. I wouldn't say they are indifferent because they are still calling people before strikes and creating evacuation zones. At very least it's obvious they want to minimize the blowback from the media, which means minimizing civilian casualties as long as they can still get their targets. I get the sense that Israel isn't willing to call another ceasefire until something fundamentally changes regarding their safety first, no matter how many bodies are paraded before the media or how outraged the (non-US) foreign public gets.
See the link in my above post for detailed info and examples of how Hamas intentionally uses human shields and puts their bases in and under hospitals, churches, mosques, etc.,
From a geopolitical standpoint, that is absolutely true. These countries are at war with each other, and someone currently on your side today is better for your national interests than someone who might potentially be on your enemy's side in the future.
Your plan is to sacrifice your soldiers and hand your enemy a victory in order to enlarge your enemy's potential forces in the future. I suspect if you were in charge of Israel it would not fare well because of your willingness to sacrifice its soldiers, but I can't help but admire your eagerness to protect innocents even if it meant your own downfall. The problem is that you'd be taking a lot of people with you and possibly dooming your nation.
I also can't help but wonder if your personal feelings about Israel are contributing to your willingness to sacrifice its soldiers. Would you feel the same way if you were sending in soldiers from whatever country you are from instead of IDF forces? Would you enthusiastically join them in such an incursion, without air support, on a possible suicide mission to save enemy civilians who are likely to support those attacking you?
It sounds consistent with the international laws of war. Everything you listed, especially being politically unpopular, is not a legitimate consideration for the use of military force against civilian populations. Under international law, the party using force must weigh the expected military advantage against the anticipated harm to civilians and civilian objects. If the same objective could be achieved via a means less harmful to civilians, that is the required option. Maybe you don't give a shit about international law, Israel never has. It is also completely disingenuous to frame loss of IDF soldiers on the battlefield as some "win" for Hamas or a risk to Israel's security. Hamas is terrorist organization fighting with soviet era junk and homemade rockets going up against a nation-state backed by the US. IDF losses would be in the hundreds at most in the worst conditions.
Now that's just silly. Israel doesn't care about the media. The Israeli UN ambassadors were wearing gold stars to protest the overwhelming UN resolution calling for a humanitarian cease fire, and Israel got called out by the Holocaust Musuem for the tactic. Israel does not care about media criticism. But you are right, they are not trying to maximize civilian casualties. They are trying to inflict maximum suffering as a means of ethnic cleansing.
Your link is nearly 10 years out of date. Also, there's no "its ok to bomb entire neighborhoods if a enemy combatant has a home in the neighborhood so is therefore using human shields" exception to the international law of war obligation to protect civilians. Not even if you, like Israel, view Palestinians as subhuman and not deserving of basic rights.
There are not two countries at war. There is one country, Israel. This is an anti-terrorism operation, by definition.
That's just some cold ass shit. Really all about wining those hearts and minds. At any rate, its a violation of international law so ok.
Ah this old chesnut, how lazy. I could easily ask the same thing to you - would you enthusiastically support your country bombing civilian neighborhood because there might be an enemy combatant in a tunnel underneath the homes? Really waiving the flag after that one?
How about the cutting off food and water for millions of people? That's a legitimate thing to do, right?
Just to note- Hamas was elected to govern in 2007. They are the elected governing body of Gaza. This is to say there are two governments at war.
I would also ask, as to responsibility: if Hamas fires a rocket from behind a human shield, and the innocent is killed as a result of return fire- wouldn’t Hamas be responsible for the war crime? Aren’t they responsible for the innocent life due to their purposeful choice to involve the innocent from the beginning?
If one side can turn off the other sides water and communications at will...it's not a war. Hamas is a fractured and opportunistic militia, without enough sovereignty to actually govern.
To also highlight, half of Palestinians are undrr 20 years old, so at most 4 years old when Hamas was elected. Hamas supporters also represented about 45% of the votes, compared to the 42% voting for the progressive party. They spoke for half of a mostly dead generation, and have since been left holding the bag as the only defense force as palestine is fractured by illegal settlments and bombed to hell.
That has nothing to do with the definition of war; asymmetrical war is still war.
Settlements: Israel dismantled all the settlements in Gaza when they unilaterally withdrew in 2005 and that didn't play out well for them. There's no reason for them to dismantle the settlements in the West Bank unless they are given a compelling reason to; ignoring them puts pressure on Palestine to negotiate for peace or lose everything.
Bombed to hell: This only applies to Gaza at present; it's almost like there are predictable consequences to attacking a nation with a superior military force.
Are parents not responsible for what their children inherit from them? They chose to have children in a blockaded, walled, belligerent territory at war, where terrorists are in charge and run the government, where children are both used as human shields and indoctrinated from a young age with militancy and hate. They could have left through Rafah when it was open, they could have found another way besides violence, they could have deposed Hamas. Yet, everyone considers Israel responsible for all the children suffering there. If this situation is hell for those youths, we can thank their parents for it. And let's not forget, these older youths have agency. They could have resisted or left but instead they went with the program [pogrom?] and chose violence, and now all of Gaza will have to live with the consequence of that.
The mediaeval slaughter on Oct 7, perpetrated mostly by youths, was clearly not defense, it was offense. An attack against peaceful civilians. If these "defense forces" resist against IDF now they will probably die. For their sake I hope they pacify themselves and Gaza surrenders before any more needless deaths occur.
Thanks for the correction, country is not the right word as Palestinian statehood is not recognized by all, nation is more accurate.
So your position is: Hamas isn't actually the government of Gaza, despite the fact that they were elected, took control in a coup, have been negotiating on behalf of Gaza, and demonstrated the capability of launching a massive coordinated attack against Israel? Please. Whether a state or not, they are clearly the government in control of Gaza and are being treated as such.
Yes, realities of war and realpolitik are often, "cold ass shit."
Might be? Israel supposedly has solid intelligence supporting their targets, so let's assume that is the case in your hypothetical.
If this happened in a vacuum I'd probably protest against it. If my country were in Israel's exact position I would absolutely support it. A century of guerilla attacks and wars topped with the brutal slaughter of thousands of civilians has a way of making one care less about the well-being of the ones committing such deeds and their human shields, and more about one's own personal safety.
If this happened to the US, Palestine would probably be shock and awed into oblivion and then forcibly regime changed, if our response to 9/11 is any indication.
Maybe they shouldn't have bitten the hand that feeds? Seems like a pretty obvious consequence of slaughtering civilians of a nation they are entirely dependent on. Demanding they keep supplying Hamas' territory with resources while at war with them is wild, and seems like an attempt to bind Israel's hands. They must fight well-fed and hydrated soldiers when their ground forces go in, I guess.