186
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 27 Nov 2023
186 points (91.9% liked)
News
23259 readers
1561 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Now that Israel just openly declares it is bombing and invading hospitals, the fog of war bullshit really doesn't matter anymore.
Maybe this one hospital strike was a rocket. What about all the other ones?
Yeah, so maybe you're right, maybe I did steal money from your purse, push grandma down the stairs when she got in my way, left the milk out over night, shit in Dad's shoes while high on meth, smoked crack in the alley, slapped all my cousins alphabetically, poured cocaine on the dog, but I swear, I didn't smoke crack in my bedroom and I don't like being accused of things I didn't do!
My understanding is this lie was used by Hamas to isolate Israel from Arab nations where much of the public was frankly horrified by the brutal violence Hamas had aimed specifically at civilians. So no, it wasn't just "the one relatively inconsequential thing," it is a lie that has had serious consequences.
It's also a large part of why people believe everything Hamas says (e.g. death tolls) while also refusing to believe anything Israel says.
The reason people believe Gazan death tolls is that they're found to be reliable by almost every organization working in the region. And the reason most people refuse to believe what Israel says without confirmation is because they've been caught lying on multiple occasions, many times going as far as fabricating evidence (remember the Al-Shifa calendar)?
They're "found reliable", but not actually checked. Like, nobody actually checks Hamas' numbers; they just "confirm" them.
Confirming numbers comes from actually checking them.
Pedanticism isn't a good look.
They don't, though. Check. They can't. No independent body can operate freely in Gaza, it's under Hamas control. They know that Hamas can rescind whatever meager access they have, and so they figure that humanitarian purpose is better satisfied by preserving access by not angering Hamas.
But they don't have access to strike sites, they don't have access to morgues. Islam requires the dead be buried by nightfall, so there's simply no opportunity for independent observers to actually verify body counts. They're just demographically "verified" - "oh, we know about that many people lived in the apartment block, so X is a plausible figure for deaths." But that's not confirmation.
Kind of like no independent journalists can investigate in Gaza about Israeli-built tunnels under a hospital under IDF control, right?
This is one of the few both-sides arguments that can be legitimately made.
Never mind the fact that Palestinians haven't had an election in Gaza in almost 20 years and a number of elected officials are in Israeli jails.
since Hamas took over
Well ofc since Hamas was elected since Hamas is the ruling party now.
I thought that would be self-evident.
Kind of the opposite, in fact? The IDF brought in independent journalists to the tunnels, proving that they'd been right about them all along.
Okay, so explain this: why would Israel lie about the tunnels? It makes perfect sense that Hamas would operate largely in tunnels including under vital infrastructure, tunnels are used for smuggling in other places around the world, and bringing the IDF into hospitals is a huge headache in terms of PR. So what's in it for Israel?
This is the entire reason for the 10/7 attack. Israel is normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia and this was a planned and timed move by Hamas to try to stop that.
It did not work.
Considering the fact that Israel is now bombing and invading every hospital, what difference does it make?
If this was a lie then it was only a lie by a few weeks. Israel has fulfilled every accusation that Hamas has made.
Purged by creator
The truth matters for the historical record, but it wasn't a lie like the other poster said; it was at worst a false conclusion. Instead of treating this like a reasonable mistake, though, they're cooking up conspiracy theories to assign malicious intent to what is pretty clearly just a result of the fog of war.
If it was a mistake. I'm reserving judgement until there's an actual forensic investigation and a truth-and-reconcilliation commission for Israel's crimes.
Purged by creator
People do not need excuses to accuse something of being fake news. Also, there really weren't a lot of reporters that actually reported this as an Israeli airstrike - they mostly just reported about the claims that were being made of an Israeli airstrike, but tried to stay neutral.
Though yes, some jumped to conclusions. Reasonable conclusions in my opinion, but that's bad reporting.
But if truth matters, then we shouldn't react to bad reporting with wild and speculative claims about people lying to make Israel look bad.
Purged by creator
What other ones, specifically?
According to Israel, the one doing the war crimes. 🙄
Regardless of whether you think it's justifiable or not to bomb buildings with both militants and civilians, it's not a war crime.
But beyond that, you're claiming Palestine isn't doing war crimes‽
Israel claims these buildings are being used by both militants and civilians.
Ignoring any conclusions you have made from Palestinian reporters, what war crimes have Israel committed?
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/02/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-war-jabalya-camp-strike-intl-hnk/index.html
Bombing UN sponsored shelters for refugees
Only 20 deaths while bombing a location sheltering 20000.
These words you added ultimately mean nothing if they aren't used for that purpose.
Bruh the UNHRC literally condemned Israel for committing warcrimes.
So, ignoring the only people on the ground telling us what is happening?
Okay, so Israel has openly admitted to the crime of collective punishment through the blockade and indiscriminate bombing by claiming that anyone who voted for Hamas is a legitimate military target. Bombing hospitals, something else they now admit to, is a crime even if they are mixed military/civilian targets; a claim that Israel has still not proven, by the way. They've also made their motives very clear about forcing the population of Gaza into Egypt, though they claim this is merciful and humanitarian it is still ethnic cleansing and fits the crime of genocide.
These are war crimes that Israel is telling the world it is committing that do not require us to rely on reporting from Palestinian journalists.
Lol it's so funny to me that you people will jump through hoops to try to make this a thing.
How mad are you going to be when these "war crimes" are totally forgotten about once you cease to be useful as a propaganda vector?
Have they? A blockade makes sense in the context of a war.
These are likely two unrelated points. i.e. civilians are being killed in bombings, and some Israeli official has shared their idiotic opinion.
No it's not? And yes, it hasn't been proven to the point of "Hamas militants have been fighting back in hospital corridors", the evidence has been there. Militants fighting right outside the hospital, militants taking hostages through the hospital, tunnels under the hospital etc.
Makes sense, get the civilians out of the way so they can sweep the strip without killing them. How is that genocidal lol
A blockade is a war on the entire population, yet Israel insists it is not at war with Gaza and is only at war with Hamas. That means they're telling on themselves; they do not see a distinction between Gaza's Palestinians and Hamas. They've also failed to prove that every element of their blockade has a clear military purpose, which is essential for avoiding war crimes.
Not "some official" but multiple Israeli officials and low-level government agencies and think tanks. The highest escutcheons of power aren't admitting any kind of connection, but I say there's enough that's come directly from Israel that we can suspect motive and should open a war crimes investigation at the very least.
Under international law, hospitals are presumed civilian unless proven otherwise. Israel didn't prove anything before it attacked. Therefore: war crime.
Also? In the case of a mixed civilian/military target, every effort must be made to preserve civilian life or it's still a war crime. Instead they snipe nurses.
Well I suppose it's only genocidal if they aren't allowed to come back and I suppose I can't prove that Israel is planning to annex Gaza into Israel (even though it's been stated multiple times from different sources within Israel's government and institutions). I'll retract, with the caveat that it's ridiculous if you think they'd ever be allowed to go home.
How do you distinguish a Hamas militant from a civilian?
[citation needed]
Fair enough. It's not going to change anything in the short term, but that's fair.
Didn't prove anything to you. The general public doesn't need to be privy to that information lol.
Sounds like they did to me. I saw multiple emotionally manipulative posts about premature babies in the hospital when they were running out of power. Nothing about those premature babies being dead. Only about them being evacuated.
If the most fragile lives came out intact, that says enough really.
Really reaching for points there lol.
I do find it interesting the level of evidence you require from Israel vs the level of evidence required from Palestine. (No I'm not equating Palestine to Hamas. I'm referring to their collective media sources)
Investigation, forensics, data and intelligence gathering, witnesses, evidence. Israel does not seem to be concerned with any of the ways it could distinguish militants from civilians, or if it is, they are hiding the evidence from us.
If a blockade doesn't have a clear military purpose then it is, by definition, the crime of collective punishment. There have to be military objectives to depriving people of food, fuel, water, shelter, and medicine. In some cases there are clear military objectives, such as depriving Hamas of fuel for their rockets, but it's much less clear what the military objective of starving the entire city is supposed to accomplish. And no, the trickle of food aid they've allowed in is not nearly enough to avoid mass hunger.
Israel does not seem to be concerned with proving the military objectives of its blockade either, or is hiding this evidence.
This is the crux of your argument, isn't it? As long as Israeli could, hypothetically, have some secret legal justification for the things that sure as fuck look like war crimes then you simply do not believe war crimes have been committed. My point with all of these things that I point out is that they require some extraordinary explanations that Israel has not seen fit to provide anyone, we're just supposed to trust them.
Doctors claim four babies died during the raid. I'm sure you don't believe them.
Well there's a power imbalance, isn't there? Israel is an extremely wealthy and technologically advanced country with nearly unlimited ability to gather information on the inside of Gaza, so it's reasonable to expect them to have evidence. Evidence they refuse to present.
Palestinians lack almost all ability to gather information or report facts from the ground, so I'm more lenient. When Palestinians are trying to record the truth on phone cameras while dodging air strikes and uploading whenever they're lucky enough to find an internet connection, it's reasonable to expect their side to maybe not have as much readily available evidence. They're very limited by the conditions on the ground.
Here's what I think, based on what Israeli officials have said and based on Israel's actions: they want to annex Gaza and expel most or all of the local Palestinian population, and they are trying to do it in a way that doesn't cause a regional war by pissing off the entire region and doesn't cause them to lose allies internationally. They have to strike a careful balance to achieve their objective, and so far are succeeding.
You don't seem to be a very good judge on the latter.
Bro Hamas is literally the government of Gaza.