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Car dealers say they can’t sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout
(arstechnica.com)
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this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2023
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Henry Ford designed the Model T to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person. Volkswagon designed the Beetle to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
The first car company to design an EV that's a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person will sell lots of them. Profit per car may be lower but perhaps we need to set the need for maximum profits aside on this particular issue?
My raises aren't even CLOSE to keeping up with inflation. Rather hard to splurge on a fancy EV with tons of high-tech nice-to-have features that are just going to break anyway. All I need to do is to get from point A to point B and have AC, heat and a half-decent stereo system.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
He'd be rolling in his grave if he saw the clickwrap agreements they have to get in a modern car now. Can't start the ignition without sharing your personal data with the car maker and 799 of its "partners."
Henry Ford? I think he'd be more likely to be impressed and jealous. He made an affordable car because no one had thought of selling the ability to buy a car in addition to the car itself in his time.
Tangentially related, there's a supermarket chain in my country that requires you to hand over your personal details to even apply for a job. The rough wording is something like: 'all your personal information in perpitutity but only internally and with people we do business with.' Except since selling my personal info would be a business transaction that clause includes potentially every human being on the planet.
Rolling in his grave in excitement you mean?
Out of curiosity, how much would it cost for you to consider an EV affordable for the everyday person?
The Chevy Bolt has been around for years and can be purchased new for less than $30k. Same with the Nissan Leaf. That's a pretty attainable number for a lot of working adults, and that's assuming you buy brand new. Multiple 2020 Bolts are available near me for around $20k. I'm seeing Bolts that might be another year or two older as low as $15k
I'd argue that price isn't the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
Not him and it may not be the only thing, but it's a main thing.
30k is a lot for a new car, and most EVs I've seen start at 30k.
You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k. Financially savvy people know that the savings in gas will take years to recoup depending upon how often you drive the car.
Then there's depreciation because a used EV with limited range is practically worthless, replacing a battery in one can run up to 15k, and Chevys in general don't hold their value.
Now is price the only thing? No. I personally also am a little hesitant to buy one and the hidden costs of having to upgrade my electrical in the garage in order to effectively charge it, and I suspect others have similar concerns.
All that said my next vehicle will likely be an EV, and I really hope Honda gets its act together because if not I'll end up having to go with someone else.
Ehhhh not anymore.. this could just vary by location, but these days it's not easy to find a used car like you describe for under 10k, unless it's 15+ years old with 150k+ miles on it, then maybe you'll find something in the $8-10k range. But that's a roll of the dice. A car like that might only last you a year, if that.
The used car market in the US is completely fucked since COVID. And knowing how capitalism works, I imagine this is the "new normal" when it comes to used cars, and we all better start getting used to it.
I did some used car searches for people in the last month and there still seemed to be reasonably affordable options in that price range.
It may be subcompacts or similarly non-glamorous cars, but you can find low mileage, somewhat recently made cars for under 10k.
Right. And those cars were one third of that price in 2019.
A junker like that isn't something you'd expect to last longer than maybe a few years, it shouldn't cost $10k+.
Sure, but they're still options for people who need a basic, functional car for a few years.
I'm not saying prices haven't gone up, they have. But there are still affordable options and the service life of a semi-modern ice vehicle from a decent manufacturer is probably longer than it ever was.
Specifically, I saw options for cars around 10 years old, some newer, with less than 50k miles for around $7k.
I would love to know where, because that's what I'm looking for. Around me, for that price, it would have at least 120k miles
I was searching in the philadelphia suburbs using auto trader. You basically just enter in your mileage options and other information and then sort by price lowest to highest.
I waited for Honda to come up with an electric or even a plug-in hybrid van, and gave up. Bought a Model Y.
I think what you're saying is really important to the overall discussion. The initial cost is only one factor when considering cost of ownership.
You might be able to buy an EV for about the same price as a similarly equipped gas-powered car. But instead of oil changes and mechanical upkeep of the engine, now you have a whole new set of systems to maintain and repair. There aren't a ton of repair shops out there yet for EVs. Even though there might be fewer mechanical problems overall with EVs, the cost and difficulty of getting a repair can be much higher.
Then there's the battery issue. A gas car engine will remain mostly the same in terms of mpg and overall power output throughout the life of the vehicle. Sure, there will be deterioration, but it could be much worse with batteries. I'd be somewhat hesitant to buy a used EV because it can be difficult to know what state the batteries are in or how much longer they will last.
Not saying 30k isn't alot of money, but the average price for a new vehicle is in the mid 45s. Cars are just expensive.
For comparison, Chinese companies sell EVs like hot cakes in Asia for <$15K. They sell it even cheaper in the mainland.
$15,000 is a cheap affordable price.
I'm putting money on Toyota and their Panasonic batteries to build something like a Corolla EV for $25k USD 400 mile range.
Infrastructure is going to have to keep up too. Unless you are in a progressive/new/expensive apartment/neighborhood has reliable access to chargers that's going to have to change before you can start selling EVs to lower and lower middle class. Right now they only make sense of you have a garage to park in.
Toyota is a bad bet when it comes to EVs.
They clearly have no interest in selling them.
I think they are just being very conservative on their lineup. They'll hold on to hybrids till they can absolutely rock the EV world. Technology that improves EVs generally improves hybrids also and they will just sell better because they are more flexible.
Well that's not going to work in Europe, where the EV mandates are hitting now. I guess it's Toyota's plan to cede one third of the world car market to European, Chinese and American manufacturers.
They've been openly working on new battery tech that's apparently going to change the entire industry. I'm pretty sure they have plenty of interest in selling them, they just don't have the tech they want for them yet.
Those types of announcements are their equivalent of Tesla's "full-self driving next year guys!" every year since like 2015?
Also power generation capacity needs to increase for everyone to drive EVs. Just think of all the power that is currently handled by burning gas in personal power plants.
Though some of that will be mitigated by less need to refine gas and transport it to every gas station.
This isn't really the case, as there is a lot of spare electrical capacity available at night time, which is when most people charge their cars. That's also when electricity is the cheapest.
We charge our two cars off of a 110 volt charger. They use less electricity than the water heater in our house.
This isn't really the case, as there is a lot of spare electrical capacity available at night time, which is when most people charge their cars. That's also when electricity is the cheapest.
We charge our two cars off of a 110 volt charger. It uses less electricity than the water heater in our house.
Toyota has been claiming that since 2010. They are no closer to a "solid state battery" that they have been raving about for the last 13 years. They don't even sell electric cars in Japan!
Toyota is widely considered to be the furthest behind the technology curve of all global car manufacturers, aside from maybe Lada.
They've got a huge share of the hybrid market. Why release something sub par (expensive, low range, needs to be plugged in) my guess is they let Tesla and other companies fight it out and learn from them wait for the infrastructure to catch up then sell to the common person not just people who can afford to have a less practical car.
😡🤬 How dare you suggest we buy Chinese electric vehicles
There's an Australian company targeting that market, although AFAICT is vapourware so far, and imo a little too low performance for the price
https://ace-ev.com.au/