556
In Uvalde, Students Followed Active Shooter Protocol. The Cops Did Not.
(www.propublica.org)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2023
556 points (98.6% liked)
News
36251 readers
635 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious biased sources will be removed at the mods’ discretion. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted separately but not to the post body. Sources may be checked for reliability using Wikipedia, MBFC, AdFontes, GroundNews, etc.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source. Clickbait titles may be removed.
Posts which titles don’t match the source may be removed. If the site changed their headline, we may ask you to update the post title. Clickbait titles use hyperbolic language and do not accurately describe the article content. When necessary, post titles may be edited, clearly marked with [brackets], but may never be used to editorialize or comment on the content.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials, videos, blogs, press releases, or celebrity gossip will be allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis. Mods may use discretion to pre-approve videos or press releases from highly credible sources that provide unique, newsworthy content not available or possible in another format.
7. No duplicate posts.
If an article has already been posted, it will be removed. Different articles reporting on the same subject are permitted. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners or news aggregators.
All posts must link to original article sources. You may include archival links in the post description. News aggregators such as Yahoo, Google, Hacker News, etc. should be avoided in favor of the original source link. Newswire services such as AP, Reuters, or AFP, are frequently republished and may be shared from other credible sources.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
All too often, the police act like wannabe Rambos - charging in with guns drawn, willing to shoot or kill any suspects in their way. The ONE time that this might have been welcomed and they decided to sit on the side and do nothing. Okay, maybe not nothing. They harassed parents who were screaming about their kids being killed.
Same thing with gun nuts defending the country from tyranny. Turns out when tyranny shows up wearing a red cap, defending the constitution isn't urgent.
I'm a "gun nut". And if I see any red caps patrolling my voting place? Well, I'll just take a quick trip to the truck and back. And then we shall have a chat about just exactly what the fuck they think they're doing. If I have to stand there with a, "ALL are safe to vote here!" sign around my neck, I will do so. (That actually isn't a bad idea!)
That ain't bravado. I'd be scared shitless, shaking in my boots. But I know history, I'm old enough not to GAF and my little kids are young enough that I need to defend their future.
(As you might gather, I'm in a strange place for an American voter.)
Hey I'd stand with you. I haven't held a gun in about 25 years, but I'd be there.
Time and time again: They'll gladly act when they can use overwhelming force. But when they are up against a similarly armed individual (ar-15 firing similar rounds to the military, body armor, etc), they cower in fear. Sometimes SWAT will actually act, but usually in situations where they can more or less level the building with tanks and explosives.
Its one of the best arguments for gun control. Because if we didn't have ready access to assault rifles that were literally designed for military purposes and that fire one of the nastier rounds in existence*, then maybe "a good guy with a gun" would have any effect at all.
And just in case anyone thinks bump stocks or illegal modifications will let them stand up to the army: the army has "real" tanks, air support, drones, and a lot more explosives per soldier. You won't stand a chance and, if anything, a concealable pistol chambered for one of the small caliber/high velocity rounds is more effective for a resistance force.
*: If anyone hasn't read this before, it is well worth the horror. Obviously lots of content warnings https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/ar-15-damage-to-human-body/
It's so odd to see people putting words and ideas in my mouth. OTOH, I'm used to it.
No one thinks they can fight the military, no one has these bizarre fantasies. At least not among us "normal" gun nuts. I consume a fair deal of gun content on YouTube, and while I may be biased because I shy away from the right-wingers, I get not a single whiff of what you're talking about.
Can't find my old post in /r/liberalgunowners, but no one imagines a toe-to-toe fight. The US military, and even the cops, depend on civilian smarts, labor and supply chains. And those are easily disrupted. People point to Vietnam and Afghanistan as examples of poorly armed locals successfully fighting back. And those fights weren't in our literal backyards among our neighbors!
But to bring it closer to home; What does this particular lib do when the local Brown Shirts come knocking to disarm me "for my own good"? That seems a very real thing to me. So do I lay down and get on the train later? Or... what?
Thought experiment; Let's magically take every gun from every citizen excepting cops and military. How long you think until the GOP drops the hammer and goes full-on fascist? Deterrence is a thing. MAD got me through the 70s and 80s.
As to your link on the lethality of AR-15 rounds, paywalled, but I'm familiar. .223 or 5.56 rounds are tiny and hella fast. (My smart-assed take here: https://imgur.com/a/kolUESz.) The article's take is for people unfamiliar with the horrific damage rounds of all sorts impart. tl;dr: Bullets don't punch holes like an icepick. Shoot an empty vs. full can of beer with a .22, you'll get it quick. A bullet is the response of last resort.
(And BTW, an AR-15 is illegal to hunt with in some states because the round is not lethal enough for a clean kill.)
And yes, the AR-15 is a military rifle. The title, and possibly the poster (don't know his work), is revolting, but none the less, this is a solid history lesson. I had not thought all that through, but yes, the US civilian has always had better arms than the US military. The "military rifle/round" argument falls flat with me.
Look at it through a modern, more liberal lens and say, "I sure wish the cops could outgun us all! They're perfectly trustworthy utilizing deadly force!"
tl;dr
I love this comedian's take on the NRA "we can take on the military with our guns" types: https://youtu.be/WOSqCjMRXWA?si=TTFMx6fLMx_akDYl
You mean twice? Uvalde and Cloward? I can think of other times where regular street cops did in fact charge in right away even in the face of killers armed with AR-15s.
The .223 / 5.56mm isn't even CLOSE to one of the nastier rounds in existence. It's an intermediate cartridge with low power relative to real rifle calibers like the 7.62, .308, or 30-06. At 100 yards or less, the distance most mass shootings take place, even a 12 Gauge shotgun is vastly more destructive.
Plenty of "Good Guys with a Gun" have ended shooters armed with shotguns and rifles. The issue isn't one of weaponary but of numbers, there just AREN'T that many overall and the odds of there being one in the right place at the right time are nearly zero. They can be amazingly effective when it happens though.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Syria...the list of conflicts that show this to be false as very long. Full Auto fire, whether through illegal modification or Bump Stock is stupid anyway and even the US Military has put controls on its use.
It's so great that it's commonly used by literally no resistance force anywhere in the world. It is commonly used by Concealed Carry Weapons Permit holders though...like the one in the link up above.
Nothing brings the gun nuts out quite like some dead kids.
I know its hard when someone shows up with actual data to counter false opinion but Ad Hominem is never a good response.
Cute little comments score internet points, but you're not helping me change the world. In fact, you're only pushing liberal gun owners like me away. Was that your intention?
You are not helping the debate. You are only hurting. Engage honestly, and be willing to listen, as I am, or STFU.
Yeah. Valuing firearms over human life isn't a leftist, or even liberal, thing. It is a monstrous. And I am not going to comrpomise on human life. Because, again, monstrous.
Also,if you can stop masturbating furiously over dead kids for a few seconds, you might see that I was actaully arguing for a "common sense" gun law of just banning assault rifles/AR-15s on account of the .223/5.56 round having significantly higher penetration over most handgun rounds AND being spectacularly monstrous when moving through human tissue. But apparently, unless people are protecting your gun's rights, they are "not listening"
But hey, thanks for being yet another gun nut who wants to make it clear that nothing is more important than THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS (and shoot kindergartners).
Again, you're hurting us all with shit like this. Now we are two more people who cannot have a sane conversation, cannot solve this, work for a better world.
The 2A exists, cannot be realistically overturned, and the courts uphold it to be a personal right to gun ownership. That statements are facts, not opinions. Those facts must be met head on, without the emotional vitriol you bring to the table.
Great thing to note! My 70's elementary science teacher changed my life for the better, in 100 different ways. One thing she taught, every damned year, was "opinion vs. fact". And the idea that emotions had no bearing on factual evidence. I was bored stupid. "Fine. Who doesn't get this by now?"
You don't get it.
Nah, it's the loud opinion in these threads that all gun owners hate children or something because they don't support "common sense gun control." Nuanced discussion isn't allowed, only name calling group hate against gun owners is.
Piles of dead kids because of a complete lack of gun control
Gun nuts: Excuse me, you are using incorrect terminology and guns are actually amazing and we need more good guys with a gun
At this point? Nobody is saying the gun nuts hate children. We are increasingly worried that you are getting off on the sight of dead kids.
I feel ya. We can't talk in forums like this because of posts like OP's. Nothing will get better, only more polarized, and ironically, more death.
I think the issue is that liberals have an ignorant view of guns and gun owners. I used to, and ignorance is OK! But FFS, be willing to learn and engage. I call you on your BS, you call me on mine, we learn.
When we bring facts to the table, facts that can be argued in good faith, we're immediately called baby killers. That's not helpful. In fact, it's harmful.