308
Wisconsin judge rules 1849 law doesn’t outlaw abortion
(thehill.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
308 points (99.7% liked)
News
22876 readers
3945 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Why are we even considering a ~180 yr old law as something relevant today?
I'm glad I think that this seems to be good news but it's absolutely insane to me that it's based on a decision older than some states.
For better or worse, laws apply from when they are enacted to when they are repealed or superseded. (Repealed includes laws with clauses that state it only applies for X years or that it needs to be renewed every Y years and the law doesn't get renewed.)
That being said, there are all too often laws that are technically applicable but whose usefulness has long since passed. In these cases, the law still applies but the state legislature needs to pass a bill to repeal it (or supersede it).
All laws need a fairly short sunset clause, actively renewing laws is important.
Congrats, you've just passed every conservative's wet dream, by not only making it harder to pass any new laws because you're constantly going to be busy renewing the old ones, but also making it so that all you have to do in order to kill a policy you don't like is to wait and do nothing.
Imagine if Republicans could kill Social Security by simply waiting and fillibustering in the Senate, and go on to blame Democrats because they technically have a majority.
The hooligans controlling the US House of Representatives are the perfect example of why you wouldn't want that.
"The legislation forbidding companies from dumping toxic waste in rivers is not going to be renewed unless we also pass a ban on all Muslim immigration to the US!"
"We're not going to renew animal abuse laws unless we also donate $100 million of our budget to each of the Fortune 500 companies!"
"We're not going to renew Hours of Service regulations and the 40 hour work week unless we outlaw gay marriage!"
And real examples you see all the time. The Republicans on several occassions have used "then we're not going to pay our bills" as a bargaining chip (debt ceiling crises).
Nah, we all agree that murder is bad and should always be illegal. We don't need to sunset that one.
There's obviously a practical approach between "all laws must sunset" and "laws never expire or change."
There is more to laws than a binary "legal or not" determination. They also include how a crime is to be punished. That part of a law is much more sensitive to shifting cultural standards.
Take for example the discussions regarding murdering in self-defense. It used be treated like any other murder, but we realized that it was unfair to would-be victims. That's how we got "stand your ground" laws. However now people are criticizing these laws for encouraging murder and paranoia, a significantly unintended consequence. There been difficulty addressing "stand your ground" because they are entrenched into case law.
A sunset clause would give easier access to the people for reassessment of "stand your ground."
Sure, there are places where they can make sense. I didn't say that there should be no sunset clauses, just that not all laws should automatically sunset.
All that means is there’s a time limit on your democracy where you get to a point where you can’t pass any new laws because you’re too busy re-passing the old ones.
How old do you think murder laws are?
Point made but those laws would be passed unanimously no matter the year, nobody wants to be murdered. Better point would be decency laws where it's crazy that men can be topless but women can't. Those laws are old too.
Okay, but you'll find that some laws are a bit more controversial than murder being bad.
Exhibit A: points vigorously all around
Those kind of obsolete laws tend to not be enforced either, and thrown out if they ever are, so it's not really a significant problem. It's important for economic and social stability that the law have some amount of stability and that we're not constantly revamping everything every decade or so.
Fun fact: it’s actually legal for women to be topless in New York due to a lawsuit over this very issue.
Yes, but abortion is also legal in some places that's why I used that as a better example.
I mean, you say "it's obvious" but we don't know it to be true unless people vote on it. "Obvious" to you can be "controversial" to somebody else (e.g. it depends on who is being killed and why).
There are many laws older than 100 years that we keep for good reason. Most of the US constitution, theft, land rights, etc. There's absolutely no reason to think negatively about a law simply based on how "old" it is. If people change their minds over time we pass new laws to reflect that. That's "how it works". You can't simply say "bah, that's an old weird law lets ignore it now."
Laws older than that are constantly referenced, e.g. the Constitution.
Seems simpler for the good people of Wisconsin to just vote on a new law that says whatever they think is proper. Obstetric science has advanced somewhat since the time when Ignaz Semmelweis first proposed doctors washing their hands before delivering babies (especially if they'd just come form the cadaver lab), so some of the reasoning behind the 1849 law might be out of date.
Unfortunately, that would require certain politicians to go on record about something that might be used against them if they later ran a national campaign, so better to let the court take the matter out of their hands and (mis-?)interpret an old law in a politically advantageous way.
Sadly as a past resident of Wisconsin referendum votes are nonbinding and the Republican held house and Senate ignore them and the people of Wisconsin.
If it wasn't the case they would have had legal cannabis long ago.
The gerrymandered state is so frustrating and is barely resisting a further descent into regressive policy by a decent governor.