147
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2023
147 points (93.5% liked)
News
36384 readers
821 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious biased sources will be removed at the mods’ discretion. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted separately but not to the post body. Sources may be checked for reliability using Wikipedia, MBFC, AdFontes, GroundNews, etc.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source. Clickbait titles may be removed.
Posts which titles don’t match the source may be removed. If the site changed their headline, we may ask you to update the post title. Clickbait titles use hyperbolic language and do not accurately describe the article content. When necessary, post titles may be edited, clearly marked with [brackets], but may never be used to editorialize or comment on the content.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials, videos, blogs, press releases, or celebrity gossip will be allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis. Mods may use discretion to pre-approve videos or press releases from highly credible sources that provide unique, newsworthy content not available or possible in another format.
7. No duplicate posts.
If an article has already been posted, it will be removed. Different articles reporting on the same subject are permitted. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners or news aggregators.
All posts must link to original article sources. You may include archival links in the post description. News aggregators such as Yahoo, Google, Hacker News, etc. should be avoided in favor of the original source link. Newswire services such as AP, Reuters, or AFP, are frequently republished and may be shared from other credible sources.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
My point here is twofold:
That not defining murdering civilians as a war crime is horrifying regardless of whether or not you've had war crimes perpetrated on you, and that Israel's extremists peddle the same basic line of "It's just paying them back", and it's fucking horrifying there too.
That the deliberate denial of atrocities is a common phenomenon amongst radicalized supporters of causes, such as how British imperialists denied their atrocities and ignored evidence to the contrary, or the denial amongst some Americans of US atrocities at home and abroad.
Whether either or both apply, it is fucking disgusting and horrifying. Again, Israel makes the same excuses for their high level of support for murdering Palestinians - it's no more justified there than it is here.
I agree with you on both points. Whats missing is the difference in definition of "war crime" and "atrocity" by the average citizen. These polls weren't conducted solely on politicians, dignitaries, intellectuals, and the like.
If you don't recognize an act as a war crime any more because of your lived experience. Are you able to willfully apply (or not apply) that label correctly?
Again, thinking about why the poll reflects the attitude towards Hamas + atrocities. Its not a matter of tit-for-tat I think; that is, its not "well they've been committing these 'atrocities' against us, so us doing it to them is valid/justified". I think its "things have been happening and i don't know what a war crime is, so when we do the same thing to them it can't be a war crime...can it?"
In order for "deliberate denial of atrocities" to apply, you have to recognize an atrocity first and then deliberately deny it. Undoubtedly, the case amongst most intellectuals inside Gaza is that they recognize it very well. But I'd argue it isn't true for the average citizen on either side of the fence. I'm talking about the people that are watching all this unfold from inside the border, Israelis and Palestinians. Shop keepers, taxi drivers, etc.
In fact, I'd wager that if a similar poll was conducted on Israeli citizens they'd most likely have a similar response to "did the IDF commit atrocities". Its status quo over there. I'm not debating if these people are right or wrong in their thinking, I imagine there's a whole conversation to be had around the notion.
So while it is definitely not right to say that Hamas did not commit war crimes or that they aren't responsible for atrocities, I think its important to understand (and not vilify) that the very definitions we're using for those terms may not be consistent inside that particular region. And that this should play into our accounting for why only 10% of Palestinians think Hamas committed war crimes.
That's it. That last line, that's all I've been trying to say
I mentioned that, specifically. My point is that that standard is fucking horrible on either side.
Without question. This is the scary part when it comes to "after the conflict". There is an entire population of people for whom violence on this level has been normalized; but vilifying the people caught up in their respective propaganda machines and the machinations of their respective governments isn't going to mend fences down the line. At the geo-political level, they may shake hands and even settle differences one day...but the familiarity with intense violence will need to be reckoned with and reconciled for the general population on both sides.