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this post was submitted on 14 Dec 2023
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The issue is that Israel is refusing to allow Palistinians the same right to exist.
Right now, supporting Israel is the same as supporting genocide. Any moral obligation to support Israel has long since eroded into history.
It would be nice if the world was so easily divided into black and white, but it isn't. Politics is complicated, and the actions of the Israeli government are not the actions or even the will of the Israeli people. Israel deserves to exist, and so does Palestine. Acknowledging the rights of both people doesn't negate condemnation of what either government has done in violation of human rights.
Trying to walk that middle line between their right to exist and disavowing their actions is harder than you think. You think it ought to be easy, except for the people who think differently from you and insist that the opposite solution you want is the only acceptable path.
We don't have the privilege of knowing everything about the situation. Trying to drive from the back seat isn't helpful.
Both sides may have done some shit, but one side is very clearly the aggressor, oppressor, and vile inhumane monster, and the other systematically enslaved, tortured, and driven off their own land.
If two people fight, but one of them literally walked up to the other and started beating the shit out of him, it's not like "Well, they both fight dirty, so let's not make it black and white but nuanced, like there IS no right and wrong."
That still doesn't make this a black and white situation. Would Israel be able to get away with selling their atrocities to the Israeli people if Hamas weren't dedicated to doing the same to Israel? If the Palestinian government had been willing to accept compromise forty to fifty years ago, would Israel have been able to do what they've done?
The answer, of course, is no. No one's hands are clean. And there's really no easy solution that doesn't violate ethics because we're on the outside looking to force solutions on them. Just like they're doing to each other. If we abandon Israel, then they'll suffer what they've done to the Palestinians, and the Israeli people don't deserve that any more than the Palestinians. You can't tell me you have a better solution because you don't.
the government of Israel is nominally democratically elected. I have no idea how fair those elections were or weren't. That government represents the people. if the people have a problem with it's actions... it's probably time for them to do something about it. In the mean time, there are some things that are pretty fucking black and white. Genocide is one of them.
Supporting genocide... is not cool.
Are you saying that Israel is some how not committing war crimes and atrocities?
Genocide is bad. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are guilty. But the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are not their governments. We can't abandon either of them and keep the moral high ground. So how do we accomplish all of those goals and get their governments to accept it.
You can't force your black and white perspective on this no matter how satisfying you might find it.
So we (the us) are obligated provide military aid to genocidal maniacs?
I think you need to get your moral compass checked. There is exactly zero justification for continuing military aid to Israel… and biden’s “tough” language has no teeth and we all know it.
Remember… the reason we’ve given Israel so much aid in the past is precisely to give Biden teeth- but now that we’re here he’s a coward. (Or actively hoping for AIPAC money.)
So you know exactly what details give you the moral probity to make these confident statements? I'm glad we have authorities like you to give us moral clarity. I had no idea you were in possession of state level secrets.
Morality isn’t a state secret.
There is no justification I’m prepared to accept from my elected leaders for supporting genocide.
Palestine doesn’t have WMD’s any more than Iraq does.
The problem is people acting like the alternative to Biden is any better
Exactly! And these protest vote morons couldn't pick a worse time to bury their stupid heads in the sand
A lot of it is Russian and GOP psyop bullshit on social media
I think that's true. Also though, never underestimate the power of pure unadulterated stupidity
the problem is just having the one alternative
The problem is kind of also that out of the two alternatives people will default to the worst choice, because the OK choice is not perfect.
This is the logic of Republicans.
False dilemma.
It’s possible to support the position of both sides.
Israel has a right to defend itself.
The Palestinian people have a right to exist.
Let’s make this equal: Palestinians have a right to defend themselves.
Merely existing isn’t the same standard. Every single argument except “the holocaust and you owe us”… can be flipped and used to back a pro-Palestine position,
Further? Your argument is… pretty freaking atrocious. We have no moral obligation to provide military aid to Israel.
Providing military aid to a nation that is committed to a genocidal campaign more than kind of makes us complicit in said genocide.
We can and should support the civilians. Doesn’t mean we have to support genocide and provide genocidal maniacs weapons of war.
Finally, and this is critical. Israel is, nominally, a democratic state. The current government was elected into power what? Last year?
Gaza residents last had an election 17 years ago, with the wining party (Hamas) having been supported by Israel specifically to destabilize Palestine… and even then they only had 44% of the vote. More than half of Gazans that are alive today did not get to vote then.
It is fair to say that Gazans aren’t responsible for Hamas’ actions. It is less fair to say Israelis are not responsible.
War is bullshit in every case. Also, arguing on the Internet is a waste of time.
However, I never argued for funding anything.
In an idyllic world you wouldn’t be so upset, nobody would die, and war wouldn’t exist. I hope you find that world through pure will of righteousness.
Have a nice day.
I'm not sure an occupying force can claim any moral "right" to defend itself.