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this post was submitted on 16 Dec 2023
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Why do you avoid buying from catalonia?
Because they are stealing money from the rest of Spain and work to worsen the lives of people in other regions for their own benefit. I'm not gong to support that by giving them money.
As far as I know, it is the other way around. Catalonia wants to separate from Spain because they are the economic powerhouse region of Spain, in addition to cultural and ethnological reasons.
There are reasons to boycott some Spanish production, significant water problems in certain regions due to unfavorable water contracts for the population, labor issues, etc., but definitely not like this. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20345071
https://www.thelocal.es/20230818/why-are-the-basque-country-and-catalonia-so-rich-compared-to-the-rest-of-spain
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2014/10/14/catalonias-independence-movement
Sounds like they don't want to pay taxes to support workers that made them rich.
If I had to guess, Catalonia is where the white collar jobs are and they want to distance themselves from where blue collar jobs are.
Ironic considering Catalonia was the hub of an Anarchist Worker-coop revolution during the Spanish civil war.
One could note a direct link between Franco driving the boot into their neck for fifty years while the rest of the country clapped and modern Spanish fascists starting to win elections with their current desire to leave.
Yeah. Each generation wants to be on top while everyone else is subjugated.
Are you even reading?
Are you? Lol.
Well, you know wrong and your 'arguments' don't make any sense. Every country has a region that's an 'economic powerhouse'. Do you believe each of those regions should become independent? You know why Catalonia is an economic powerhouse? Same reason as regions in other countries:
Obviously there are other regions that could be an 'economic powerhouses' of Spain. Without Catalonia Spain would simply invest in other regions and consolidated industry there. The idea that Catalonia grew in a vacuum and built it's economy independently from Spain to later be invaded and exploited is simply a lie. It's a integral region of Spain that have seen a lot of investment. Investment made by Spain with the cost of big national debt that Catalonia want's to avoid paying now. That's what it comes down to: Catalonia want's to take the money and run away.
Now to you 'cultural and ethnological' reasons. Historically (until 1990') only bout 20% of Catalans considered themselves different country and wanted independence. That's because till 1990' the independence movement was based on cultural and ethnological values. It didn't really worked, 80% of Catalans still felt they are Spanish. In 1990 Catalan leaders started talking about money. Their arguments shifted to "we are the economic powerhouse, we should keep all our money" (sounds familiar?). Suddenly support for independence grew to around 50%. It's not because their culture changed, it's because people there understood that disrupting Spanish politics and fighting for independence will give them money. That's what it's all about. This rhetoric also ignores the fact that 50% of Catalans still consider themselves Spanish citizens and want to live in Spain. They are being actively discriminated by Catalan government and in case Catalonia becomes independent will entirely lose protection given them by Spain. Supporting Catalan independence gives Catalan green light to discriminated half of their population. Keep that in mind next time you will promote Catalan propaganda.
The data forming the basis for the economic argument is from the INE (Instituto Nacional de Estadística), it's not "Catalonian propaganda." link to INE: https://www.ine.es/dynt3/FMI/en/
I do not argue for or against separation, thats their matter. I just wanted to clarify and add a few sources regarding the issue. I do belive economic differences contributed to the separation movement, though.
If by 'contributed to the movement' you mean 'Catalans are using their strong economy as an excuse to disrupt Span's internal politics and demand more money and privileges for themselves to the detriment of the entire country' then yes, you're right. Not sure how that does make it any better.
Also, it's not their matter. It's Spanish matter.
If you were the one paying to keep most of the lights on, you might reconsider your position in the system as well. And yes, that is why we have political discourse; I wouldn't word it or see it like you do, but again, yes, economic factors can be a bargaining chip in such political problems.
For the Catalans I have spoken to, it's more a cultural and historical thing that is amplified by the economic and political situation. Also, none of them believe or want to (fully) part with Spain, they want more self-determination and be more independent from Madrid but not leave Spain, much more like a state in the USA. But I have only spoken to two Catalan people about this issue, so it's not a huge sample size.
Please, stop spreading Catalan propaganda. You're clearly ignorant about this subject. Spain is divided into Autonomous Communities. Each region has a lot of autonomy, exactly like in USA. Catalonia has even more autonomy than other regions. They have their own police force, healthcare system and parliament. The only things managed by central government are the ones they can't be trusted with like taxes. It's been proven that Catalan government defrauded a lot of money to pay for the illegal independence movement, clearly they are not fit to collect taxes. What they want now is full independence so that they can steal even more money without any oversight. Catalan parliament voted and passed a law declaring full independence (which was later declared null by the courts). To say now that they don't want to part with Spain is simply a lie. That's exactly what they tried to do.
The don't pay to keep the lights on, that's another lie. 90% of their production is sold in Spain. They make money because the rest of Spain is a good market that buys their products. Without Spain they would not be able to sell their products and grow their economy. This is basic economy, really. To imply that they are the only ones working and they somehow support the rest of poor Spain is simply disgusting. Please, educate yourself before writing about this subject and spreading lies.
Bro, I'm not engaged enough for this... again, I don't argue for or against separation. I never said it wasn't a feudal system. I said the two Catalans I spoke to said they want more freedom within the feudal system, namely more self-determination like the states in the USA, not a separation from Spain.
If you really think the INE is faking numbers to fit Catalan propaganda, then I don't think you are able to make factual discussions or statements regarding the economic situation of this issue.
Just a quote from the INE to help underline my point:
"This statistical operation adopts the methodology contained in the European System of Economic Accounts (ESA-2010) in compliance with the provisions of Regulation (EU) No. 549/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council, of 21 May, as do the rest of the statistical operations that make up the Spanish National Accounts, which guarantees the international comparability of its results."
Seriously, which part are you not getting? I'm not saying that Catalonia doesn't have stronger economy when compared with the rest of Spain. I'm saying it's normal, it happens in every country, it's not because there's something special about Catalans and it doesn't give them any special rights. Which part don't you understand?
What you do is come here and repeat lies spread by Catalonia while saying "I don't know, I just heard that...". What's the point of that? You're just helping spread misinformation.
I'm not understanding the part where you accuse me of spreading misinformation. I provided the official source from Spain, an anecdote, and sources for each of my points.
So, brother, do we agree then? Is Catalonia the economic motor of Spain? So, who's getting whose money then?
What's your source for the claim that Catalonia doesn't want to fully part with Spain? I read the actual law passed by Catalan parliament and I know that what they did is declare full independence. That's my source. What you wrote here was a lie, it's as simple as that. You would know it's a lie if you knew anything about this subject.
I already said that Catalonia has stronger economy than rest of Spain but the claim that this is their money and they support rest of Spain is another lie. Are you really unable to separate those two claims? I already explained many times why one can be true and the other can be a lie at the same time. I can't explain it any better so if you still don't get it let's just end this discussion here.
Again, I do not argue for or against separation, XD.
very basic summary: You said they steal money; I ask how. All these sources say otherwise. You said these sources are propaganda; I asked how is the argument based on the data from the INE propaganda. You did not respond and insisted that people I spoke to are lying because I don't have a "source" for their OPINION.
Bro, what's your point? No one is out to get you or is interested in internal Spanish politics enough to intentionally spread propaganda in the comment section of a random Lemmy post that maybe 80 people scrolled by, most likely not even living in Europe or near Spain and don't care.
Your sources don't say otherwise because they don't say nothing about who deserves what money. I don't know how to put it more simply. Just because one region of a country generates money it doesn't mean they deserve all of it.
You keep talking about Catalonia being the economic powerhouse of Spain AND about Catalonia giving money to Spain at the same time. That's the propaganda. It's not about the first part. It's about equating those two things: making money and deserving all of it.
How does Catalonia steal money from other regions? By forcing the central government to give them money they don't deserve. If you don't agree we can talk about which region deserves what but instead you're just repeating that Catalonia makes more money. I never disputed that. It's about what they actually deserve.
Also, I didn't say the people you spoke to lied about the economy. They lied about not wanting full independence. I explained why. How hard it is to understand this?
The most prosperous region of Spain, which is actively trying to get independence, is stealing money from the rest of the country?
It seems to me, that "cutting" off Catalonia's supposed theft, would be as easy as letting them leave.
Shhh it's Spaniard logic also known by us Portuguese as: pure stupidity.
Why do you think the inquisition did so well in Spain. They aren't very intelligent
Uh. The Portuguese Inquisition was just as brutal and effective though.
But it started in Spain XD.
Also in no way I'm saying or did I say we are smarter.
What a stupid comment.
They can leave it they are willing to pay for the national infrastructure build there and take their fair share of national dept. Now take this offer to Catalans and see what they will say.
I'm assuming they paid taxes. Why should they pay more? Taking part of the debt would be fair though.
Well, they don't want the debt. They just want all the infrastructure and independence. What should we tell them?
Are there a lot of products that come from Catalonia?
There is a high concentration of Spanish industry in the region, and a major cargo port in Barcelona. Madrid and Barcelona are, by far, the moat important cities in the country.
Some. They have big chemical industry so a lot of cleaning products and cosmetics come from there. But it's always easy to find substitutes. Also because of their criminal behavior a lot of companies moved to other regions so it's even easier to avoid them now.