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this post was submitted on 29 Dec 2023
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Why does every Israeli argument come down to "we were oppressed and killed en masse so we're allowed to oppress and kill en masse others"? That's not a defense. By your logic, black people in the US should be allowed to kill white people in the South and take everything below the Mason-Dixon.
Lemmy does acknowledge this, you just ignore it. It actually doesn't help your argument at all. Jewish, Christians, and Muslim Arabs lived in peace in the area for centuries. That's a huge argument against the necessity of Israel as it's one Jewish ethnostate and a huge argument for a one-state solution, the one I prefer myself. And no one minded the land they purchased until they started buying it from the UN without consulting the local people who actually lived there. Israel always says it was legal, but ethically it's horrible. Imagine your landlord selling your stuff and land without consulting you after promising you he'd sell it to you soon if you rebel against your old landlord.
Ya, they did both, but that's unrelated. What's your point here? My point was that there's a reason Palestinians were angry at being promised their own state and then Britain and France giving huge portions to what would become Israel. It explains a lot of later actions that Israel doesn't like to give context for, like when they're attacked by surrounding nations (after all, that's where the Palestinian refugees end up running to and affecting). Not sure what your point was.
There's no completely innocent party. I mean, Hamas sucks. But the power dynamics make things more clear. All the power to change things lies in Israel, who has an actual government, state, military, advanced defense technology, etc and controls everything about the Palestinian territories.
I'd bet you money they don't really compare. That'd like saying I can say plenty of times the Native Americans did horrible things to the white settlers to the US, but I can tell you 100% that one side was way worse than the other when you factor in scale of damage, power, and historical context.
Treated differently how? They get special treatment, I suppose, but I have a feeling that's not what you mean. They're condemned as much as other nations. Probably should be condemned more, up there with Russia, but they got the US backing them up. Other than that, they're brought up a lot because 1) people are more anti-colonialosm now than they used to be and 2) most of the English-speaking internet is from the US and it's allies who donate tons of money to Israel, so unlike other places of horror, a lot of the citizens who speak up can actually do something about it, and 3) I actually don't think people speak up enough. People have generally ignored the plight of Palestinians for decades, part of the reason they're so angry lol.
We are getting into so much that it’s hard to reply to everything immediately… I will just do chunks when I have the time and though we clearly, deeply, disagree, thank you for the conversation.
I was not trying to make that argument. I was indicating that you were leaving out relative and pertinent counter-facts. Being oppressed does not give one the right to oppress others. But when you hear about stolen Palestinian (Arab) land (which DID and DOES happen to this day), you never hear about stolen Jewish land and exile from the same conflict as part of this conflict. Neither existed in a vacuum. Neither justified the other. But with many claims and views on Lemmy, only one side informs the thinking. I take exception to that.
I am really trying to be clear here. The collective punishment that the Palestinians have suffered since the second intifada is war crimes. Literally, collective punishment is a war crime. Bibi, and many in Likud (whom I detest with a passion rivaled only by my revulsion at American republicans and neo-libs… capitalists…) are ALL war criminals, should be tried and convicted for it. Yes, I know Israel isn’t a signatory to the ICC… idc. They should all be convicted of their war crimes.
But I will not pretend that the Palestinians were some angelic group of peace-loving people who have been nothing but oppressed and have no blood AND war crimes on their hands.
Evaluated in a vacuum, anybody would understand many of these radicalized anti-Israel views. Because Israel is GUILTY of WAR CRIMES. I am not excusing or defending it. I WILL debate some horrors of war, though as not being clear-cut war-crimes. Especially Hamas’ co-location war crimes, which are the worst of the conflict as they have been committed for decades with nobody doing anything about it.
But I do not view the conflict in a vacuum, and sincerely believe it makes zero sense to do so. Here’s a severely abridged list of things that affect my views and thinking on the conflict:
pre-WW I, in the Ottoman empire, Palestine was not a deep and widespread national identity. Most Arabs (the majority of people in the Ottoman Empire identified tribally or by family). And Palestine was a place filled with Christians, Muslims, and Jews, with relatively low levels of conflict (but also not a peaceful Disney wonderland, as I have seen pro-ported in some claims). And when the immigration of Jews increased post 1908, so did resentment and hatred directed towards them similar to all anti-immigrant behavior (like Brexit, America/Mexico, etc.) You can find historical articles on how Jews moving in lowers the value of the land, and how undesirable they are, directed as much at the immigrant aspect as it was the religious. Much like white neighborhoods trying to keep blacks out in the US, nobody wanted the new Jewish Immigrants… or you could think the Irish influx of America around the turn of the century. Anyway, many definitely minded the Jewish immigrants and people did mind the land they purchased.
Historic claims are arbitrary and relative, to a degree. What do I mean? For instance, who’s claims do we honor? Israel’s biblical claims to the land (as an Athiest, this is not compelling to me. archaeological and objectively supported claims are more compelling, even so, who the fuck cares what happened back then?) The Crusaders who lost the land (should it be returned?)? The Ottoman empire (who I could debate on the side of Suleiman the Great, was one of the best times for the region)? People, with this conflict, often pick the most convenient claim to support the point they are making? Maybe we should use the most recent legal recognition of Israel as a Jewish homeland and state? I think there is a very strong reason to use that one, but admit it’s debatable, and am not saying that there was not shady shit going on in the creation and recognition of the state. I will also say, MOST countries have shady pasts and formations. Surely we can agree on that too?
There were clearly horrific crimes during the Nakba. And even recognition of the Nakba has been suppressed in the West and especially in Israel. Most Americans do not even know the term Nakba. It is like how most Americans do not know that Central Park was an African American area of properties that was literally stolen from them to make the park. Or the ignorance about how many other American African American successful communities that were literally razed and occupied or erased from history and memory as best as the criminals could. Israel to this day has not unsealed numerous files on Nakba operations. I do not excuse these, but also do not find it a convincing argument to dismantle Israel as a state anymore.
I am highly open to a discussion and debate on it though. A meaningful, respectful one, not a normal Lemmy world news one where I get death threats regularly and comments to “fist yourself you fucker”. LMFAO.
Shit man, this is already getting too long. I’m sorry. My point early on when I was taking part in Lemmy World News (back in Oct) was that this is a SUPER deep and complicated issue. I am open to a respectful and intellectually honest discussion and debate. I am just not sure how to shrink it down.
Should we start a separate thread elsewhere, for people who want to discuss things honestly? Or even a community, so we can mod it and remove hate and propaganda…
Maybe we just leave it here in this thread and keep chatting like this. I don’t know, what do you think? If you just want me to (insert hatred here) lemmie know so I dont’ waste anymore time. ;)
Cheers