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this post was submitted on 24 Jan 2024
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Do you give any credit to Hamas for holding their families as human shields or for decades of suicide bombings and martyrdom?
Weird that Israel has an international coalition of western powers and respected countries behind it, and the coalition behind Palestine is as follows:
Hamas also has a number of non-state affiliates that support it including:
Really, these are the friends of your friends? You sure you didn't get tricked? I mean, here you are taking an absolutely ridiculous position so you can stand up for suicide bombers and jihadists.
Sort of seems like it's more about the fact that Israel desires to be a democracy but is surrounded by Islamic fundamentalists who want to subjugate people under authoritarian theocracies and ancient superstition with zero possibility of granting lasting human rights for tens of millions of people.
The world is not going to miss Hamas after its gone, least of all the human shields Hamas forces to stay behind and be bombed whenever Israel warns people that they are striking a nearby military target.
Oh, the irony of claiming Palestinians are dying because Hamas uses them as human shields under a video were an IDF soldier straight of murders a Palestinian with a white flag.
That's the very definition of self-disproven bullshit.
Also one wonders how exactly Hamas' use of Palestinians as human shields would explain members of the Israeli state calling Palestinians (not Hamas, Palestinians) "human animals" and "violent", the kind of talk which is neatly and easilly explained by members of the Israeli government being rabid racists and something which is even consistent with every single thing they've ever said about Palestinians as well as their actions - lots of illogical and falacious argumentative contortions are required to force the "human shields" theory to explain all sorts of statements and actions by the Israeli authorities but the "rabid racist" theory just straight up fits like a glove (Occan's Razor easilly applies here).
Further, you provide a wonderful example of the rabid racism I mention, by immediatelly going on and on about Hamas to justify killing Palestinians, as if all Palestinians are the same and hence all Hamas and deserving of the same fate.
C'mon, just admit your major hard-on from seeing the "lesser races" being "put in their place" and stop the hypocrite instantly self-disproven bullshit rant. At least you would be deserving of a little bit of respect for your honesty.
Nah, I'm not impressed by the unscripted remarks of a few extremist members of the Israeli government, most especially when that rhetoric does not match the facts on the ground.
This war is about protecting Israel from an existential threat. Israel is deserving of that protection because it is a democracy. It's really as simple as that. The Palestinian people have had 100 years to stop deploying terrorism as a method of achieving political ends and they have utterly failed. After October 7, enough is enough.
I never once said anything about any civilians deserving this fate. However, it is not Israel that put them there. It is Hamas. Period.
Including the ones in charge of the security forces...
Wow, that's very nice. It still doesn't match the activity or facts on the ground.
If the ground activity match the rhetoric of the three or four people you are talking about, it would look like this:
There would be direct military strikes on roads, power infrastructure, and water infrastructure without any pretext of tunnels or Hamas fighters being present;
There would be no humanitarian aid corridors;
There would not be phone call, text message, leaflet, and roof knock warnings before every bombing;
Every day there would be dozens or hundreds of videos of soldiers with rifles or tanks with machine guns opening fire on large groups of civilians;
The civilian death toll would be way, way higher than 1% of the population (1% of Gaza, 0.4% of all Palestinians) after four months;
The numbers of daily casualties would be going up and up instead of trending downward as they have been week after week.
Well they bombed the power and water facilities. They bombed the humanitarian evacuation routes and safe zones. They don't do any warnings during high tempo mission periods, and they may warn as little as one person and give them 5 minutes to evacuate multiple apartment buildings. At that point it's pro forma at best and torture at worst.
You're literally commenting on a thread where they shot at civilians. They wouldn't in fact shoot every civilian though because they do still need to be able to shoot at Hamas and soldiers can't carry an infinite amount of ammunition. Furthermore, they're instigating a famine. So there's no need to shoot them.
And your last two points are just restatements.
When you can't refute facts you just make things up or spout generalizations as universal facts?
When did they bomb power and water facilities? What facility? What date? What was the explanation? What was the known intelligence? You can find it for just about any specific events you want to cite. Unless of course you're just repeating bullshit generalizations that you heard somewhere.
Who this sole individual that received a warning and given five minutes to evacuate multiple buildings? In my understanding the warnings are a model of effectiveness used by other militaries operating in urban environments all over the world. There are records of Hamas receiving warnings and then forcing every resident nearby up to the rooftop of the building to die for the cause.
Instigating a famine? By what, opening humanitarian corridors in the first week of the war and continuing them virtually without interruption every day since? How many people have died of starvation so far, do you have any figures?
CSIS
IPC
The IDF is severely restricting the flow of aid by keeping border crossings closed. The evidence is clear. On this track Israel will commit genocide by starvation.
They're just going to say it was justified to kill all these people because Hamas fighters are in the vicinity. That person you are replying to doesn't seem to understand that the presence of terrorists around people doesn't excuse killing those people under any circumstance.
They will shift the blame away to Hamas. It's like if you and your whole family were getting murdered by someone, then they yell, "Look at whst you made me do!" as they stab your wife.
Yeah it's not my first round with this guy. But if nobody pushes back his narrative stands.
Yeah, because it's absolutelly normal everywhere in the world for government ministers to deem a whole etnicity "human animals" and suggest nuking a neighbouring enclave and not be kicked out of that government before the day is over.
Also the idea that a country with fighter jets, tanks and even nukes is under extential threat from a bunch of murders from with homemade rockets from a neighbouring country whose land they've been stealing for over half a century, would already be unbelieveable in the story of a Fantasy book, but trying to pass that as reality is really taking the piss out of everybody else.
Go pull the other one.
It seems like you don't know enough about this conflict to really have an opinion.
The existential threat would be the organized and internationally funded terrorist organization operating with impunity within Israel's borders under the ideology of Islamic Jihad.
The terrorists here are also supported by Iran.
Whatever hope Palestine may have had for a Tuesday solution ended on October 7 when when Hamas sold out its people and its country in order to do 1,200 murders.
Oh man, doubling down on fantasy now with the added "YoU KNoZ noTHingZ WHiLe I KNoZ aLL" style of "argument".
What perfect example of the wishfull thinking and self-delusion of rabid racism overriding all traces of even the simplest logic.
You're really working hard at proving the point of the guy I originally answered to in this string of comments, as well as my own.
Hey, maybe try refuting any of my arguments instead of a bunch of hyperbole and nonsense.
Being the same line of argument as your previous post only reframed and with a falacy of guilt by association thrown in, the argument was already refuted in my last post.
I mean, I suppose I could point out that this last post of yours relies on the idea that Muslims are all the same hence Israel is justified in attacking Palestinians because ... Iran.
But that would just be repeating myself, again and pointing out, again the racist "logic" used to tie all those actors together as "guilty as one" and hence "any of them can be targetted because the actions of any other make Israel be 'existentially threathened'".
I suppose I could also point out that "the country is both strong (has nukes and the support of the greatest military power of the world) and weak (is "existencially threatened") at the same time" is a very traditional Fascist cliché used to excuse aggression.
You're not exactly dispelling the whole a-lot-like-the-Nazis impression of Israel.
The existential threat is the ideology of every country surrounded Israel, one of which is actively trying to develop its own nuclear weapons and which has sworn it will use them against Israel if it does.
That's a lot of words to say absolutely nothing intelligent or that you didn't pull out of your ass.
You mean the organization that Israel influenced the creation of through decades of mistreatment and mishandling of the situation? The same one Israel is on record saying it's a good thing as it allows Israel to treat Palestine as a hostile state? Basically exactly what they're doing now, killing anyone and everyone and just shrugging and saying "because hamas"?
"Israel is on record"? It's a country. A democracy at that, inherently made up of conflicting points of view and coalitions.
1% of the population dead = "killing anyone and everyone."
You sound hysterical and emotional.
Fine, Israel's leader/government, as elected by its population, is on record. Does that make it better?
1% of the population is a lot of people. That's tens of thousands of lives cut short. Kids who'll never grow up, families torn apart, etc. Should that not elicit emotion? There's plenty of videos of children and unarmed people trying to surrender or otherwise being shot. Seems like anyone and everyone to me.
Fun fact! Hysteria was originally thought to be a condition that only applied to women, hence the Greek root "hyster" for womb, as if that were the source of irrational emotion.
For your convenience:
Plan Dalet and Declassified Massacres
1967 war Declassified
Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations
Palestinian Prisoners in Israel and Military Court
Child abuse of Palestinian prisoners
Gaza March for Return Protest
Palestinians lack civil rights
Occupation and 50 years of dispossession
Arab League advocating for unified state 1948
Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
10 Myths of Israel
History of peace process
How the US became the ally of Israel
Arab Israelis are not equal including Education (2001 report)
Apartheid
Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)
Settler Violence
Torture and Abuse in Interrogations
No freedom of movement
Gaza Blockade is Occupation
Water control
Wow, appreciate the resources. Commenting to view this later...
Thanks. I also recommend the books Ilan Pappe has done if you want a more academic approach. A lot of this is independent verification of his work that I've found.