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Michigan governor says not voting for Biden over Gaza war ‘supports second Trump term’
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
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She's right, and anyone with half a brain would see it as obvious.
Yeah but the statement Biden supporting Israel supports second trump term is true as well and anyone with half a brain would see it as obvious. Who do you think is more vested in winning the election?
No, Trump will win if not enough people vote for his only opponent that stands a chance. If that's you not voting for Biden - for any reason - you're to blame.
“Elephant shit more than bears shit.” Is technically true. But you’re still talking about shit.
We have a right- and indeed an obligation- to call out our president’s bullshit. Just because one hypothetical is worse than another, doesn’t mean that Biden and most the rest of the DNC supoorting genocide is okay.
“Well it could be worse” is a cop out.
This isn't a hypothetical, this is the real fucking world. Biden will be President again, or Trump will be. If you do anything besides vote for Biden, you're helping Trump, period. (In the general election that is, do whatever you want in the primary.)
1- you don’t know who will win. You don’t even know if they’ll live long enough to win. This isn’t entirely an age thing- there’s enough assholes who absolutely would pull the trigger here. (And I’m not even sure assassinating Trump is immoral. That’s how fucked yo this all is.
Either presidency is still a hypothetical. Period.
2- TRUMP BEING WORSE DOES NOT JUSTIFY SUPPORTING GENOCIDE.
Seriously. When people protest biden’s (and most every other politician’s) support of genocide… it isn’t about the election. ITS ABOUT THE GENOCIDE.
Stop making excuses. You’re defending genocide. You’re complicit in genocide.
No, this is not hypothetical. Either Biden will win, or Trump will. You can protest and throw all the tantrums you like, that's what the primary is for.
Come November, if you don't vote for Biden, you're as guilty as the most ardent MAGA supporter in letting fascism take power.
Incorrect.
The purpose of a primary is meant to select the best candidate possible.
We can argue if a guy whose consistently thrown unconditional support to a genocidal regime is in fact that, but the primary is not to “throw tantrums”
And yes, I am pissed that my govenement is currently sending money and weapons to a genocidal regime. I am more than pissed. I expect better of my govnerment.
But being incensed at genocide… isn’t a tantrum.
Can… you do me a favor? Can you just agree that genocide is bad? Or is that too much?
Whatever you want to call it, you go act out in the primary all you like, vote for Barney the dinosaur for all I care. But when it comes to November, you put on your big kid pants, suck it up, and vote for Biden, otherwise you're as guilty as any other MAGA fanatic.
So….
We can’t agree that genocide is bad?
Once again: you are talking about a possible future- a very likely future. Protesting the genocide of Gaza’s isn’t about what might happen in the future. The protests are about what is happening now.
And what our current, active government is doing to support it. “First they came for the Gazans, and I did nothing because Biden was better than Trump” is not something I want to express later.
Our government is complicit in genocide. Period. It doesn’t matter if the current president is better than the alternative. It’s still complicit in genocide- and because it ostensibly represents me- I have an obligation to tell it to knock it off.
You, on the other hand, are using your right to free speech to enable and defend genocide.
You asked me for a favor, and I'm not inclined to do you any favors until you commit to voting for Biden in the general. After that, we can talk.
Why does saying genocide is bad require a favor for you to do?
That was the other person, not be. I don't do favors for fascist supporters, of which I'm now convinced they are one.
“Do what I tell you and then we can talk”
you sound like a republican. You can’t even agree that genocide is bad and you expect me to actually agree to do what you say as if you’re some divinely appointed prophet? Fuck. That.
I'm not doing you any favors while there's still some question as to whether or not you're supporting fascism. If you refuse to vote for Biden in the general, that's exactly what you're doing. So here's the opportunity to clear the air about how you're going to vote.
You're not gonna admit that genocide is bad because you don't believe it is. I'm voting for Biden.
See everyone! It's not difficult to commit to voting for the only one standing between us and Trump's fascist takeover of the U.S. Seriously, people act like it's pulling teeth to say they'll vote for Biden.
Yes, of course genocide is bad, and we should immediately stop giving funding to Israel because of it. Like you, that's not going to inhibit me in the slightest from voting for Biden in the general.
After all the times you refused to say genocide was bad, you say this.
Some of us don't need to have stupid arbitrary demands met in order to say it.
Well good for you then. Me, I'm not going to engage in a discussion based on mutually assumed good faith with someone who is presenting themselves as a concern troll to support Trump. Those people don't deserve benefit of the doubt.
Yeah, some people have to kiss the ring in order for you to reluctantly condemn genocide.
Yes they do. If they're unwilling to commit to voting for Biden - thus giving support for Trump - they don't deserve a political discussion with me.
No sinner is venial enough to deserve a political conversation with someone who will only condemn genocide after their arbitrary bullshit demands are met.
Lord knows I don't. I'm out.
Fascists acting in bad faith absolutely don't deserve a political conversation. People claiming to be upset about Biden's support of Israel but who nevertheless refuse to support him against Trump reveal themselves as such, and I don't engage with them.
Good, get out, and good riddance, you weren't asked here anyway and were under no compulsion to weigh in in the first place.
You’re concerned I’m maybe supporting fascism…. Fascists just love their genocide too.
So maybe since you’re so concerned about fascism- check the goddam mirror.
And once again: the protests aren’t about the goddamn election. It’s about the American government supporting genocide, and speaking against that.
Oh, another thing fascists do: silence dissent. They also love loyalty and purity tests.
You don’t have to do me any favors you don’t want to do. But seriously; you want to persuade people… this isn’t the way.
So you're voting for Trump, got it. Thanks for the clarification.
Hey bud, how about you not scream at someone for something they didn't say? Making up strawmen and screaming at them isn't going to convince anyone youre worth listening to, let alone convince them to actually to listen to anything you have to say.
There's a lot of that going around. A lot of us are justifiably pissed off at the Biden admin for funneling our tax dollars into a genocide... but calling that out is just being met with a wave of "if you don't vote Biden, you're supporting Trump, which is even worse!" which... no shit? We can be pissed off at Biden and simultaneously still willing to vote for him over Orange Hitler Those things aren't mutually exclusive.
Then pick someone who says something like that to argue with. The person above is just screaming at someone because of something that no one in this thread said.
Hey bud.
How about you actually read what said, instead of repeating those “Biden Good” macros you think are persuasive.
The problem here is that you seem to think any criticism of Biden is unwarranted because he is not as bad as Trump hypothetically will be.
And yes. At this point in time, it is hypothetical. Nobody here can predict whether or not Trump will win. Or if Biden will win.
Which is all entirely beside the point that people are protesting our current government - not our possible future government’s support of something most of us find objectionable.
Saying “don’t protest genocide because Trump will be worse” is a lazy excuse; and fundamentally defending genocide.
Do you support genocide? Do you think what’s happening in Gaza is good?
Do you think Palestinians should be eradicated as a culture and a people?
Because that, right here, right now, is what you are supporting.
Why do you support female genital mutilation? Huh how come you're not responding? Is it because you love mutilating children's genitals that much? Why do you just love to torture children and maim them for life?
Oh hey look, it's not fun to argue with someone who argued against things you didn't say.
Reread the part where i said not to put words in people's mouths and try again asshole.
That’s amusing.
Yes I’m apposed to genital mutilation. It’s easy to say.
You’re the one trying to make this about some thing it’s not. People are protesting our current government’s policy towards Israel. That is to say, they’re protesting our current government’s support of genocide.
This has nothing at all to do with the upcoming election; and telling people to shut up about it, or Trump might win (or implying it) is a good sign that maybe people find the current policy deeply unpopular.
And yes, what you are doing is in fact defending genocide. So which of us is an asshole here?
No, I'm pointing out that arguing with strawmen and putting words in people's mouths is dumb and childish, and like I said, you are, for repeatedly using strawman arguments. Try and not put words in people's mouths. It's really really not complicated for most people over the age of 12.
saying "genocide is bad" is not a strawman.
Saying it's not about the election is not a strawman.
Saying arguments that Biden is better than trump is a cop out is not a strawman.
Saying people- myself included- are protesting the war in gaza is not about the election is a strawman.
I am not putting up a scarecrow to argue against. Nor am I putting up a sock puppet. I'm saying making the genocide in Gaza about the election is stupid. you're (royal you) are telling me to shut up and vote for Biden. you're attempting to change the topic of discussion into defending being upset at Biden. you're getting pissed because people are upset about genocide. news flash: most reasonable people are upset by genocide.
No, I'm telling you to shut up and stop putting words in peoples mouths, and yet there you go again, claiming that I said anything about Biden or voting or genocide.
Literally all I've said this entire thread is to stop putting words in people's mouths and you just keep crying about me silencing your views on Gaza. Express your views, express them to people who say the opposite, so far that's not the people you've been replying to.