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this post was submitted on 08 Mar 2024
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politics
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Biden wasn't involved in the Afghanistan pullout, actually. That was definitively Trump.
They let Mods use mod profiles to spread misinformation in this sub?
Wow.
Edit:
Moving the relevant bits from Wikipedia above the debate so people will have a frame of reference.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_U.S._troop_withdrawal_from_Afghanistan
Trump signed us up for it, and Biden was right that it needed to be done, but the execution of it was a travesty and that was absolutely on Biden.
I know, I know, it's not like Biden planned every last detail of it, but when you say something idiotic like:
"There’s going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy in the — of the United States from Afghanistan. It is not at all comparable."
Source:
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/567872-the-biden-fall-of-saigon-media-narrative-in-afghanistan-presents-worst/
Then this happens:
https://youtu.be/-qpmi5KqggY
And this:
https://youtu.be/YUkObNlWjsI
Followed by this:
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/kabul-falls-to-taliban-us-withdrawal
and this:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/05/taliban-afghanistan-arms-dealers-weapons-sales-terrorism/
Yeahhh... not a good look.
Opinion pieces and YouTube videos. Nice sources. It's some real irony at work as you scrub other peoples content on the sub for including video links. The last one is literally directly a result of Trumps orders, and that is the most credible link you shared. You are spreading misinformation.
What changes to Trumps Afghanistan retreat did Biden implement?
All Trump did was agree to the removal and set the timeline. The actual EXECUTION of the removal was on Biden because, by the time it actually came to get out, Biden was the commander in chief.
He SHOULD have evacuated all civilians and Afghani assets first, he failed to do that, even when Guam stepped up and offered to assist going "Hey, you know we've done this before, right?"
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/guam-was-ready-to-help-relocate-afghans-biden-ghosted/
Biden was told, ahead of time, "this is what needs to happen", he ignored it.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/04/politics/afghanistan-siv-bipartisan-letter/index.html
Once you evacuate all the civilian assets, you remove all the gear and equipment you can, then you burn the rest.
THEN you bring the troops home.
Point for point, Biden screwed it up, and when he gets called out on it, his argument is "Well, hey, we had to leave..." and while he's not wrong in that, the priority and methodology was fucked from the ground up.
So Trump gave shitty orders during a time he couldn't provide oversight, and that is Bidens fault.
Sure, dude.
When asked what changes to Trumps orders Biden made, you change the topic.
Bad faith bullshit.
Trump gave NO orders for the evacuation. He agreed to evacuate and to the timeline.
The actual ORDERS were left to Biden, because when the time came, Trump was out and Biden was in.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_U.S._troop_withdrawal_from_Afghanistan
Yea, straight-up bullshit. The retreat was signed by Trump. The only orders from Biden were to remove the residual force that would have just been bait for casualties to instigate the next bloodshed.
How are you allowed to moderate this community? I've already taken screenshots of the thread. I've seen how you operate.
Read your own sources before reporting my well sourced and factual comments:
"The deal, and then the Biden administration's final decision in April 2021 to pull out all US troops by September 2021 without leaving a residual force, were the two critical events that triggered the start of the collapse of the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF).[8]"
Again, which part of trump's plan, that Biden merely followed through on to maintain our treatise and agreements trump made with the taliban, during a presidential transition, were Biden's changes or influence?
The man followed through with an agreement the previous administration made to try and signal unity and consistency that the US always honors their agreements, even if we don't like it, and that's Biden's fault somehow?
Again, Trump had NO PLAN. All he agreed to was to exit and the date.
Everything else was on Biden.
You know that's not true, right? The other guy replying to you cited sources and references proving that what you said is straight up not true.
And, unfortunately for them, their source directly says the opposite of what they think it does.
You’re 100 wrong here.
Trump literally could not plan the Afghanistan exit because, now follow me on this, he specifically arranged for it to happen in the next Presidential term.
When it came time to leave, Trump wasn't the commander in chief passing the orders. Biden WAS.
But this is not true and relies on knowing what he was thinking and making assumptions. Everyone else is playing by the rules of what is provably true. You’re just… well…. Assuming things.
It IS true, because all Trump did was agree to leave by what timeline and nothing else. He wasn't the one saying "Yeah, so if Guam offers to help, make sure you ghost all their phone calls" because that hadn't happened yet. BIDEN did that.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/guam-was-ready-to-help-relocate-afghans-biden-ghosted/
"Among those willing to help was Governor Lourdes Leon Guerrero of Guam, a US territory in the Western Pacific. On June 12, she sent a letter to Biden. “Guam has stood ready to serve as a safe and secure route for this type of humanitarian effort throughout our history,” she wrote. “And today, it is no different. I assure you that my administration is prepared to assist” should Biden call on Guam to provide safe haven to refugees. She was echoing a plan advocates had been calling for since the spring: the “Guam option,” which would work around immigration bureaucracy by having the military airlift refugees to the island while they waited for their US visas or for another country to take them in. But the White House ghosted Leon Guerrero, too. After sending the June letter, the governor received “no formal written response,” according to a spokesperson."
Trump had fuck all to do with this because it all happened AFTER he was out of office.
Again, you’re 100% wrong:
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/
I appreciate your feeling the need to dig in and entrench yourself in your own defense- but you’re just wrong.
Your link is EXACTLY what I've been saying!
"The Trump administration in February 2020 negotiated a withdrawal agreement with the Taliban that excluded the Afghan government, freed 5,000 imprisoned Taliban soldiers and set a date certain of May 1, 2021, for the final withdrawal."
Trump made the agreement and set the date.
Biden issued the actual orders.
"Biden delayed the May 1 withdrawal date that he inherited. But ultimately his administration pushed ahead with a plan to withdraw by Aug. 31, despite obvious signs that the Taliban wasn’t complying with the agreement and had a stated goal to create an “Islamic government” in Afghanistan after the U.S. left, even if it meant it had to “continue our war to achieve our goal.”"
He inherited the commitment, and the timeline, the actual order of events, the actual military decisions, the choice to ignore the offer of help from the Governor of Guam, that's ALL on the commander in chief, which, at the time, was Biden.
I think it’s pretty evident that you don’t understand how any of this works. It’s probably best to end this here before I start getting comments removed.
I'm telling you exactly how it works, Trump committed to it, factually proven, with links. Biden executed it, factually proven, with links.
The failure was in the execution, as I've already noted.
Did Trump set Biden up for failure?
100% yes.
Could Biden have done things differently so as to avoid the clusterfuck?
100% yes.
Biden CHOSE to start drawing down troops while civilians and equipment were still there. That is all on Biden.
From June, 2021:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/04/politics/afghanistan-siv-bipartisan-letter/index.html
"It takes an average of 800+ days, and we plan to withdraw in less than 100 days," they noted. US Central Command said this week that the US withdrawal from the country was 30% to 44% complete."
Biden CHOSE to ignore the Governor of Guam when they offered assistance evacuating the civilians who helped us.
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/guam-was-ready-to-help-relocate-afghans-biden-ghosted/
"Among those willing to help was Governor Lourdes Leon Guerrero of Guam, a US territory in the Western Pacific. On June 12, she sent a letter to Biden. “Guam has stood ready to serve as a safe and secure route for this type of humanitarian effort throughout our history,” she wrote. “And today, it is no different. I assure you that my administration is prepared to assist” should Biden call on Guam to provide safe haven to refugees. She was echoing a plan advocates had been calling for since the spring: the “Guam option,” which would work around immigration bureaucracy by having the military airlift refugees to the island while they waited for their US visas or for another country to take them in. But the White House ghosted Leon Guerrero, too. After sending the June letter, the governor received “no formal written response,” according to a spokesperson."
Trump had NOTHING to do with either of those events because he had already been out of office for MONTHS when they happened.
You don't believe me? Believe, I dunno, the STATE DEPARTMENT?
https://abcnews.go.com/International/reporters-notebook-afghanistan-withdrawl-State-Department-biden-trump/story?id=100553006
"While the White House previously said that Biden directed government agencies to prepare for "all contingencies," the State Department inquiry found disorganization in the highest level of government, saying it was "unclear who in the department had the lead" on evacuation efforts.
The review also claims that senior officials failed to make critical decisions about which at-risk Afghan nationals would be airlifted before Afghanistan fell into turmoil."
Cited, quoted, proven.
k.
please check dms/reports
You failed to read it the first time so I will paste it here.
It's funny that I directly talked about that bit. And of course, you decide to start attacking me with an uncivil slap fight response instead of addressing my statements.
You need to revisit the comment and the bit of Wikipedia that you cut out of the quote below.
they seem confident about things they are wrong about factually, and have certainly moderated based on opinion or accusing others of misinformation where they are the one who is misinformed. but I don't see it changing.
also your comment and mine are in violation of the rules about discussing moderation. we can whine on !modabuse
If moderation is being used as a tool to manipulate conversation on the thread, I don't see how people can be expected not to talk about it.
What instance is that group on? I might have it blocked.
Let's say you work at a very busy fast food place that has a night shift, complete with its own night manager. While you sleep, the night manager puts in an order: at 1pm, all remaining potatoes must be dumped, and you must go buy new crates of potatoes. 10am comes and the daytime manager comes in, and is stunned to see the order. At noon, the lunch rush starts. At 1pm, the day manager follows through on the simple order of throwing out the remaining potatoes, and now the fast food joint can't make more fries.
Who is at fault in this situation? The night manager agreed to dump the potatoes and gave an order on the exact time to do it. There was no plan given on how to do it. The day manager received the order and was the one who actually dumped the potatoes, costing the restaurant a ton of money by essentially shutting down fry production.
Is there evidence the time line was feasible, or that the outcome under Biden could have been avoided. My understanding of the events is that everything was setup in a way where either the time line had to change or things would get messy.
Oh, no, in fact Biden was told an evacuation like that could NOT be done in the timeframe and they went with it anyway.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/04/politics/afghanistan-siv-bipartisan-letter/index.html
"The bipartisan lawmakers contended that the existing process for Afghan Special Immigrant Visa (SIV) applicants will not work.
"It takes an average of 800+ days, and we plan to withdraw in less than 100 days,""
That's where Guam stepped up and said "hey, we'll take them, let us help!" and were ignored.
If the process takes more than 800 days, you either expedite that process, or remove them to a location where they can safely wait out the process.
The Biden administration chose "none of the above".
So doesn't that mean Trump set him up to fail. Sounds like the prior administration messed up and left Biden to clean up. No matter what Biden did, he'd be in the wrong (extend the evacuation or push forward with the set timeline).
If that's the case what are you arguing should have happened, and how is the previous admin not responsible for creating the circumstances.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense/2928575/milley-paper-order-withdrawal-afghanistan-final-trump-days/
Read your link much?
"Despite their advice, Biden ordered the complete withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan in April 2021. They ultimately withdrew at the end of August 2021, with the Taliban back in power and Afghans who had spent two decades working with U.S. forces concerned for their safety."
Sorry cited facts don't matter to you.
Insulting another user gets your comment removed.
Insulting a mod gets you a 24 hour ban.
Touch grass.