151
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 13 Mar 2024
151 points (100.0% liked)
Politics
10162 readers
14 users here now
In-depth political discussion from around the world; if it's a political happening, you can post it here.
Guidelines for submissions:
- Where possible, post the original source of information.
- If there is a paywall, you can use alternative sources or provide an archive.today, 12ft.io, etc. link in the body.
- Do not editorialize titles. Preserve the original title when possible; edits for clarity are fine.
- Do not post ragebait or shock stories. These will be removed.
- Do not post tabloid or blogspam stories. These will be removed.
- Social media should be a source of last resort.
These guidelines will be enforced on a know-it-when-I-see-it basis.
Subcommunities on Beehaw:
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Trump is the dumpster fire the Republican party has been working towards since Reagan. He is exactly what is expected on the Red side.
Biden is a union busting right leaning genocidal sociopath, which is the exact opposite of what you would expect from the Blue side.
America has been lost.
If you went here and had a substantive rebuttal to the reasons Biden's actually been way above average for a US president, you'd be the first.
I feel like you laid out why ^ in your own post where you think you're supporting Biden. You're also is incorrect about the US putting military personnel in Gaza (they're not, but that wouldn't be good anyways). They're explicitly building the pier without actually landing any personnel. You're also overstating the 'sanctions' Biden is putting on settlers; they applied to like ~~7~~ (sorry, after double-checking that I wasn't understating it, it turns out I was overstating it; it only applies to) 4 nobodies who the sanctions in no way actually harm.
Might-actually-be-the-Devil-Ronald-Reagan was harsher on Israel than Biden is being, and it wasn't even over a genocide. Reagan cut off weapons sales to Israel after they bombed Iran's nuclear materials program at Osirak. He allowed 21 UN resolutions condemning Israel to pass without vetoing them, and even backed the resolution (UNSC 248) condemning the attack on Osirak. He also slowed down aid to Israel to pressure them to withdraw troops from Lebanon, and publicly condemned them on multiple occasions.
Meanwhile, Biden is still calling for more weapons for Israel.
Reagan is a literal evil gremlin, and Biden doesn't even come close to matching his response to Israel's evil bullshit.
Every time you downplay or misrepresent Biden's actions on Gaza, you normalize them.
You think they're gonna build the port and then extend aid packages on long poles so their feet don't have to touch the soil?
Compared to the IDF being there unsupervised? Yes it would.
Correct. It's crap. But, it's more than anyone else has done.
Iraq, not Iran (unless I missed something big about Reagan's geopolitical alignments).
And you have to go back 42 years to find a US president who did more than what Biden's doing, and the reason he did it was nothing to do with the Palestinians but just because the IDF was attacking our ally.
But yeah, if you want to tell me bad about what Biden's doing with Israel, you honestly won't get a lot of argument from me.
My point is (a) what the fuck, it's way more than any other US president has done actually on behalf of the Palestinians that I'm aware of, for whatever fucking weak sauce that is (b) Trump is way worse; Trump wants to "finish the problem" in Gaza (c) I'm a lot more open to criticism of him from people who seem like they are reality based as far as politics and world events overall. If he suddenly starts doing everything right in Gaza, and becomes the president who reverses 75 years of genocide enablement (4 fucking blood-soaked months too late) -- are you gonna start saying hey this guy seems like he's produced a genuine permanent improvement in the US's policy which pretty badly needs the help, and as a person who wants to see it get better I'm behind that? Or are you gonna pivot to some other talking point to use to criticize him, if the ones that have some validity are no longer available? And if it's (b)... why?
No, I don't think that, because I actually read about what the plan is: they're having third-party organizations do the delivery of the aid.
You think the US military would do shit if the IDF stepped in?
Except it's... not? Sanctioning 4 nobodies is somehow more than cutting off weapons sales? What?
Correct, my mistake.
Yes, you claimed that no US president has been harsher on Israel than Biden. That's complete bunk, and I laid out the evidence. Now you're moving the goalposts.
No one else here is talking about Trump. Your apparent need to make everything a comparison of the 2 in no way lessens the actual actions Biden has taken.
Sure, I can commit to a fantasy scenario: If Biden makes the US no longer support Israel materially, politically, or ideologically, YES, I will absolutely say he deserves credit for it.
But he's not going to.
That's not what I said. The two main things I said initially were:
and
I don't feel that having a tactical disagreement with Israel over something unrelated, while fully supporting their ongoing program to kill Palestinians whenever they feel like and arming them the entire time, represents any humanity in Reagan's Israel policy. I feel like giving food aid to the Gazans and telling Netanyahu there are particular cities he's not allowed to bomb does. Not enough, by any means. But some. You might disagree, and point to the recent past as an argument for why. And fair enough if you do. Most especially fair enough if we do actually follow through on giving them $14 billion worth of weapons and money to keep killing with, which we seem poised to do at any moment.
I feel like you're trying to make a disagreement here, like I'm for Biden and you're against Biden and we're each trying to make the best argument because one of us has to win. I am not operating that way. There's actually not a whole lot of difference between how we see what he's been doing and saying on Israel. Maybe I have a little more hope that he'll start to do better things soon. But go back and read what I actually said. I'm just a person trying to make sense of the world and explain how I see it; for as much as I say good things about Biden, I'm not really on anybody's "side."
It seems like everybody needs to remind democrat voters that it was Hilary that made Trump a Republican candidate so she would have a better chance at winning. Republicans work towards Trump, Democrats did. Voting for Democrats is a vote for worse Republican candidates and I assume vice versa.
And then she still lost. Why? Because she was a conservative running as a Democrat because her husband gave her an in with the party.
We do not currently have a liberal party in America. We have a bunch of dunce christian conservatives on the red side and we have a bunch of brainwashed not-christian conservatives on the blue side.
We have VERY few that are anti-war, anti-genocide, anti-cash-in-politics, pro-working-class politicians because Hilary and her circle murdered the moral compass of the Democrat party.
Look, you have two choices:
Agree
I actually don't even agree that Biden is a "lesser evil" in the first place, I've talked about it
But even accepting for a second the premise that there's nothing to support about Biden, I like how to these guys the lesson of 2016 and Hilary Clinton is "let's refuse to support the establishment candidate against someone who's clearly worse, what harm could come of it?"
I blame South Park.
I very much believe -- I'm being completely serious about this -- that 4chan making good memes about Trump becoming president, because it really is just inherently a funny idea, had a lot to do with elevating him from 0 support to a little kernel of popularity that could start to grow into something.
Boomers don't pay attention to 4Chan. It's such a small segment of the population.
Gen X and Millennials pay attention to South Park, though. They see that "douche vs. turd sandwich" bit and think "Hey, that applies to our situation now!" Then they stay home in protest, because they don't like certain aspects of Hillary's campaign and ideals, as opposed to hating every aspect that Trump does or represents.
It's not about picking the "lesser evil". It's about having realistic expectations and analyzing the situation as a whole. During the primaries, you pick the candidate you want. During the general election, you pick the party you want, even if your primary pick didn't win. That's it.
I honestly agree and America is the dumbass that microwaved their iPhone to charge it.
So you will support it with inaction? There is no magic third door here. Both sides are pro-genocide, one can be worked on, one cannot. Vote blue to stop the worst, keep protesting to change the discussion. Sword and shield.
My Republican family members are 100% behind the murder of all Palestinians. No aid. No ceasefire talks. Inaction will allow those people to call the shots. What use are morals if they don't save anyone?
I need you to understand this first—the slate is never clean. No one makes better decisions under increased chaos and uncertainty. Ever. They don't learn. They don't find their better selves. They use the hardship to justify atrocity. Why do you think rural communities are the way they are? People won't suddenly open their eyes and say golly gee those leftists were right, we are all in this together and let us all put our best foot forward. Tomorrow is always yoked to yesterday. No matter how unfair, no matter how unjust, you can never raze enough of what came before to start again fresh. There is nothing that works but gradual change.
Do not take my word for this. Start reading. You are ready for pain and death and to drink the hot blood of our enemies for the glorious revolution. But what the revolution really needs from you, is for you to suffer through some boring ass books. No shortcuts. No meme politics. No youtube activism. If this is not a thing you are willing to do, if this feels like throwing damp sand on the fire, I need you to think critically about that.
Do you want equitable change or is it more important to keep that rage burning? If so how does that make you any different from a drunk on outrage MAGA fuckwit?
Use all the tools at hand to save as many as you can. This means not letting the orange fucker back into power. You can vote blue and put a brick through the AIPAC's office window if you so choose. All good lefties learn to walk and chew gum at the same time.
So in summary because 70,000 Palestinians died... you think the lives of the million people sheltering in Rafah are forfeit? ...Because once they started the genocide they might as all be dead anyways? What the fuck mate. Do you need someone to tell you that's fucked up? That is fucked up.
And when did I say appeal to conservatives? Read mine again. You suggested plunging the worst off of America into suffering would magically cure them of their centrist tendencies. Reality is, where there is instability and inequality people grasp on to shitty xenophobic rhetoric to justify holding on to anything. I'm begging you. Read some history. Show me an example where dismantling the existing power structure in a time of instability worked. Not in the past 40 years. In the past 1,000.
Yeah that jumped out at me too
Like fast forward two years, Trump is giving on-the-ground military assistance to Israel instead of whatever milquetoast diplomatic resistance Biden is doing so far which is still better than the American average. The second war has started, and there's carpet bombing of Palestinian cities with American intel assistance, all the food aid has stopped, and we don't even attend UN meetings anymore.
And then go to Palestine and say "Sorry about all this. You could have had the status quo, but I could never vote for someone who supports a genocide, period. So don't blame me for it. Fuck gradual change."
What's your plan? I'm listening.
edit:
In November there are two outcomes. This is reality. One has a higher death count. Showing up and voting blue is the least one can do. There is no virtue that costs innocent lives.
https://time.com/6591139/biden-israel-executive-order-sanctions/
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-791654
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/13/1237616100/israel-hamas-war-gaza-aid-un-food-ships
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/12/biden-netanyahu-israel-gaza-war-red-lines
Is it enough? Fuck no. I'm not happy about him funding the Israelis before during and after all of that either. In particular, the line "impose restrictions on the use of U.S.-made offensive weapons by the IDF in Gaza" jumped out at me pretty much as I'm sure it did to you.
On most things I'll defend Biden; on Israel and Gaza I won't. He's the latest in a long string of leaders who's okay with arming the Israelis so they can kill innocent Palestinians, and blocking any attempt to stop them. I'm fine with clinging to a small hope that he's planning on changing for the better. A lot of un-heard-of things have been happening in the last few years: Big climate change legislation, student loan forgiveness, a bill for federal marijuana legalization, stuff that was way beyond the limits during the Obama years. If Israel is the next one of those, then great. But I'm not holding my breath and I don't think it excuses four months of death and allegiance to the worst country in the mideast. I'm only bringing up those small examples above to say, that's more than most US leaders and way, way more than Trump would do for Palestine.
Okay, let me do it again: Trump's said he wants to "finish the problem" in Gaza. Personally, I believe he means it and that's how he plans to wield power with a second term. If you bring that to power, instead of someone who's merely on the grim neoliberal a-little-genocide-is-okay-but-maybe-let's-do-better-in-the-future trajectory, then all those dead people are on you.
To bring Hitler to power, because Germany's colonial adventures before that created enslavement, starvation, and slaughter (because they did), and so you can't see a difference between Hitler and the establishment Germans, is unconscionable. That's you. That's what you're doing.
Yes, I'll hold you partly responsible for all the dead Palestinians, Ukrainians, Americans, and whoever else at the end of whatever Trump does if you think there's no problem with actively bringing him to power and don't want to actively work to stop it.
He might as well play Disco Elysium to show how ridiculous he sounds.
I think I missed out not getting this game.
You can still get it.
Biden is arguably the most pro-union president in recent history, hands down.
https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/
If you're talking about the one time he signed a bill to force the rail workers to work ... while we were in the middle of already very very serious supply chain issues right before the holiday season... We got through the season and the rail unions ultimately ended up winning https://www.ibew.org/media-center/Articles/23Daily/2306/230620_IBEWandPaid
How?
If he didn't help Isreal he'd be thrown under the bus for weakening the US's only ally in the middle east. He'd also likely be opening up a power vacuum (and potentially larger war) that would backfire very badly for the US.
The real issue is the Isreal people elected their own version of Trump so Biden is dealing with a "Trump of Isreal" that's more than happy to run down civilians.
It's not like he hasn't been trying to go behind Isreal's back and help Palestine. It's just not a "press a button to stop sending them weapons and all the problems go away" situation.