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submitted 7 months ago by 0x815@feddit.de to c/europe@feddit.de

Cross-posted from: https://feddit.de/post/10013170

The war in Ukraine is “existential for our Europe and for France”, Mr Macron said in the interview on France 2 and TF1.

“Do you think that the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Estonians, the Romanians and the Bulgarians could remain at peace for a second [in the event of a Russian victory in Ukraine]?” he asked. “If Russia wins this war, Europe’s credibility would be reduced to zero.”

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[-] sukhmel@programming.dev -1 points 7 months ago

It feels like the cited statement actually lacks causality. If Ukraine falls, nobody will remain at peace, that's true. But how does that change the credibility of Europe except for showing that maybe help was not large enough (even that might be a wrong assumption) is what I fail to see.

If anything, the credibility of Europe could be questioned over the efficiency of sanctions and over how those sanctions actually affect Putin's war

[-] Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works 4 points 7 months ago

It’s the credibility as an ally. If the EU fails to supply Ukraine, even though the EU shares a land border with Ukraine, Taiwan, Armenia and other nations currently threatened will not rely on the EU’s support, but rather just surrender to aggressors. Especially with Taiwan, any conflict there would blow up world-wide trade, as everyone and everything is dependent on taiwanese microchips. It would also mean that many Ukrainians feeling betrayed by the West would flood into the EU (or are already here), which would lead to a lot of strife. Lastly, every dictator will feel emboldened, as precedent shows that you only have to keep your offensive going until the public loses interest. When the current world order is upset, many conflicts will form and grow. Any power vacuum left by a retreating power will be fought over and filled.

[-] PonyOfWar@pawb.social 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I'd argue that nobody relied on the EU for defense in the first place. Prior to the war in Ukraine, Europe was not exactly known for getting militarily involved in conflicts or as a defensive ally, quite the opposite. See all the "strongly worded letter" jokes. I don't think Taiwan is under any illusions about getting major military support from Europe, no European country (except Vatican) even recognizes it. The EU and Ukraine were never formally allied prior to the war, so if anything, the amount of support was/is larger than expected.

[-] Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 months ago

Noone relied on the EU for protection, because the EU was largely unaffected by wars in the past. However with the war in Ukraine, the EU is directly affected. And a war over Taiwan would affect the EU in a similar gravity. A war over Albania less so, but a NATO member and a (former) candidate to join the EU, Turkey, is likely to be directly involved in such a war. If the EU shows that it is unwilling to push back against aggression, even if the EU is directly affected, then the EU will lose a lot ofinfluence with other regional powers.

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this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2024
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