552
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 01 Apr 2024
552 points (94.7% liked)
News
23301 readers
1395 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
It's more complicated than that. Like saying there is a fire in a theatre when there is none, saying transgender are undercover perverts and a danger to society when it's not supported by evidence will get people killed. Freedom of speech is great and all but when your lie and put people in danger there should be consequences.
And just for the record, this is not a theory. People HAVE been murdered.
Sick people are inspired to violence by all kind of thing, are we going to outlaw Catcher in the Rye?
There is a very incredibly stark contrast between telling a story on a page and actually saying "we should hurt people"
Kind of depends? There are books around that are rather direct in their hurtful message.
Yeah there are, but you'll never be able to stop people from spreading literature, legal or not, so things like catcher and the rye, mice and men, mockingbird, with all of their controversies are great to have in schools to help our children grow into adults who can identify this stuff for what it actually is and not some deranged gospel.
But then there's also a ton of other arguments to be made about mental health and all that, when it comes to violent psychos we shouldn't get in the habit of settling with a scapegoat
Maybe you are misunderstanding me, I'm not arguing for censorship of books but against censorship op speech.
You originally asked if we were going to suggest banning CATR, my point is mostly these books are great examples to help people identify this language and why it should not be used. If you went into a crowded theater and started shouting there's a shooter, you'd be arrested for inciting panic. Its not censorship when the point is stopping speech from causing physical harm. Same way your right to travel isn't infringed by requiring a license to drive
My right to travel is not infringed because I can walk.
Hateful people will be inspired by books and by speech to be hateful and to hurt others. Not sure why you draw the line at books, since also speech can be used as a lesson.
I would also there is fundamental differences between causing an immediate panick and voicing a hateful opinion. The later was times and times misused to silence governmental criticis. Sure - this time it might turn out different, since good guys are in power, but I highly doubt it.
We should because it's a shit book.
I see, since you are for outlawing books it all falls into places.
omg you're reaching so hard over this entire comment section. just stop, it's quite frankly embarrassing
Oh no I'm embarrassing myself in the internet, how will I ever live that one down.
You are the only voice of reason in this thread. Free speech is important and laws like this will be abused and used to punish political opponents.
Its not abuse when the political opponent is a bigot using hate and violence to build a platform. For the millionth time, you are free to run out there, make an ass of yourself, and use all the slurs you want.
What you are NOT free to do, and what this entire conversation is about, is organizing and inciting people to commit a hate crime.
Its pretty interesting that these things were fine when we're talking about the civil rights movement, but as soon as there's a trans or gay person around, your rights are under attack for trying to kill somebody.
How does this prove your point when we established like 30 seconds ago that we are not after douche bag bigots who just use slurs?
removed
Have you actually read the law? Because i'm getting the feeling this is all talk straight from your ass. The entire bill is mostly a consolidation of existing hate crime laws with sex and gender added to the protected classes. Section 4 is probably the one most of you read about on twitter and are basing your entire argument on, it defines that you're not allowed to say things considered harassment or to incite hatred. You cannot just pester one person for just being gay. YOU can't just post about how bad you think gay people are and ask others to agree, because you're inspiring new people to harass others.
Section 9 goes on to expand on this, and very explicitly states that freedom of expression takes precedence and you cannot simply be arrested for criticizing a protected class. Meaning, you saying "i don't agree with transgender people, a man should be called a man" is acceptable. You cannot say "transgender people don't deserve rights" because you are harassing them directly.
The rest of the bill is mostly defining what classes are, and indicates that a lot of the provisions are meant to be used with other laws, it says "offense" a lot, which seems to be getting interpreted as "i am offended" when they're actually defining it as a crime that has been committed. They specify an example that the bill does not apply if you simply assault a police officer, but if you shout something at him about his religion or asexual identity, the bill applies as this is a hate crime.
Here's a link to a document that lays the bill out in layman's terms:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2021/14/pdfs/aspen_20210014_en.pdf
So again, please explain your issue with the bill? You're upset you can't go out and harass gay people all day?
Glad that someone else actually read the law.
That exactly what I personally think is problematic, because I would fundamentally disagree that this is "directly" - but you are right that this is exactly that will be an offence under that law. The same goes for possession of inflammatory material (Part 3, Section 5, 47). Especially with digital media that seems rather murky.
Again I find Rowling opinion on trans people rather disgusting and genuinely damaging. But the law seems to me rather excessive. But maybe I'm missing something.
I think it makes a lot more sense if you look at this bill while thinking about communities and interactions in modern times - ANYBODY can have a twitter, youtube, tiktok, etc account and immediately have access to a platform where they can potentially speak to thousands of people, and some of them are pretty impressionable (thinking andrew tate) - so as a community leader you should have some awareness that people are going to act on your ideas because they look up to you. I think this bill is trying to limit cases like that, and also cases of bullying where people have been harassed to the point of suicide simply for their identity
That is a bit trivializing. Not everybody is able to build a following, you need to bring something to the table for people to watch you. Given it can be just being somehow entertaining like tate. But it's not like every bigot gets automatically Rowling's reach, she had to write a rather popular children book for it.
That is the core question to what degree is someone responsible for actions others created by their words. There are obvious clear cases but I think the law gets rather unclear with "or where it is a likely consequence that hatred will be stirred up against such a group." (Part 2, Section 3. 32). That's rather broad and unclear in my opinion.
Yeah there's a lot of ambiguity in the law, they try to define it but they use "what a reasonable person would believe" a bunch, which leaves a LOT of room for interpretation. If a bigot is in power, none of it is unreasonable to him.
I'm not sure how i would fix it though, theyre trying to address a serious flaw in the modern world, Because intentional or not some of these personalities inspire actions that get people hurt or killed.. its a bit of a double edged sword
Governments have a bad track record (in my opinion) when it comes to vaguely defined laws.
I would absolutely agree that we have a gigantic problem with modern forms of mass communication. For me it's beyond just bigots spewing hate but also foreign governments influencing people. For example in Germany a lot of far right AFD talking points has obvious roots in russian media propaganda. And I will not pretend that I have any kind of answer but I feel like it has to go deeper than trying to regulate specific cases of speech.
Okay, it's nth time I see the undercover pervs/rapists about trans folk. The hell happened?
So who is deciding what opinions are puting people in danger. US government for example thinks that whistleblowers Manning and journalist like Assange are puting people in danger.