214
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 03 Apr 2024
214 points (79.1% liked)
News
23259 readers
3519 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
"Shut up, you're voting for who we want you to vote for because we say so" is never the right message. Centrists will never think of another one.
How apropos... Confidently telling everyone why Hilary is wrong while clearly not even reading the article. Classic.
That wasn't really the message. The message is more: "Please stop with the hyperbole. You know that Donald Trump is the worst possible candidate imaginable." Which is absolutely true.
Ok? Then Biden should be begging for votes, doing anything within his power to get progressive and leftist votes and telling moderates and liberals to get over themselves.
No? Oh so just more of the same finger wagging from the usual suspects convinced that one more lecture should do the trick.
I mean, I agree it would be great if Biden was a better candidate. I'd be a whole lot less worried about a second Trump presidency if that were the case. But he's not a better candidate. He is who he is. And though he hasn't earned your vote, you should give it to him anyway because it's in your best interest to do so.
No.
Focus your lectures on moderates and liberals for once in your goddamn life. I'm done being held to a different standard.
Ok, so what's your solution, then? Actually - first, let's make sure we're on the same page about the basics: do you agree that Donald Trump would be fundamentally worse for America than Joe Biden? Second, do you agree that any candidate other than the winners of the Democratic and Republican primaries basically stands no chance of becoming president?
Again, ask moderates and liberals that question. And then ask them if Trump is such a danger why didn't they fume at Biden for blocking the rail strike? Or raising the defense budget? Or forcing federal workers back to the office? Or going around Congress to ship weapons to Gaza? Why didn't they do anything in support of progressives and leftists for the past three years?
Why is it the people who have gotten fucked over by Biden are being told to vote for him rather than telling Biden, moderate voters and liberal voters they cannot win elections on their own and thus they must make material compromises with the people they're depending on?
You're trying to squeeze blood from a stone here. I'm telling you I'm done propping up procorporate trash candidates for moderate and liberal voters. If they would rather lose to MAGA than make material compromises with leftists and progressives that's on them.
If Biden really believes Trump is such a a danger then he should be on his knees begging for votes. Or is his ego worth more than democracy?
Ok - you didn't answer either question. You gave me a bunch of reasons why you dislike Biden, but no opinion on whether a second Trump presidency would be worse for America than a second Biden presidency. This isn't a trap; I want to know whether we have a basic level of agreement here.
Buddy, stop.
What you're doing isn't clever, nor effective. You need to hold a mirror up to what you're doing and realize you are attempting to hold me to a different standard than moderates and liberals. Let me know when you're ready to hold them accountable and bring us both to the table. All you're doing here is trying to do what people like you always do: Get progressives and leftists to give up anything and everything while giving moderates and liberals a free pass.
No. Biden cannot have my vote until something changes.
Well now I'm very curious as to what you think I'm doing. Because I think I'm asking you to make a judgment call about which of the two candidates who have a shot at becoming president would be better for America. It's a very simple question. What do you think I'm doing?
I'm sorry, but you're going to have to explain that to me. I have no idea what you mean by that. How is asking you your opinion on the relative impact of each potential president holding you to a standard at all, let alone one that's "different from moderates and liberals"? It's not a difficult question. Do you not know the answer?
Have you asked any moderates or liberals that question?
I mean, probably? If someone decides that they don't want to vote because they have a moral quandary with voting for the "lesser of the two evils", then that person doesn't make rational sense to me. So I'd be curious. Their political leanings don't really matter in that scenario. Out of curiosity, why would you think that I wouldn't ask the same questions of anybody else who said the same things you did? I mean, you're just text on a screen to me. I don't know you from Adam, so why would you think that I would have intimate knowledge of your political positions at the outset of our conversation?
Moderates and liberals do have such a quandary. It's used as the reason why Biden blocked the rail strike, why he negotiated down on his own campaign promise for student loan forgiveness and why he didn't cut off weapon shipments to Israel. Simply put, people argue if Biden made material compromises with leftists and progressives then moderates and liberals wouldn't vote for him.
I don't know who is making that argument, but it is a stupid argument. And besides, it doesn't address the point at all. If, for example, Biden made those material compromises with progressives that you describe, and a "moderate" or "liberal" decides not to vote for him when his opponent is Donald Trump, then I would be in the exact same situation with them that I am currently in with you: asking them "do you believe that Donald Trump is fundamentally worse for America than Joe Biden"?
You've argued that I am holding you to a different standard by asking it, but have just demonstrated that that is nonsense. So will you answer now?
That's the point though. Nobody asks that of moderates. They keep getting exactly what they want and zero questions about it. Meanwhile progressives and leftists are expected to capitulate everything to the slightest wiff that moderates and liberals would abandon the party.
I'm done. The roles are reversed now. From now on I won't vote for candidates who won't give me what I want. So you'll have to hope moderates and liberals are ready to suck it up for a bit.
Ok, you're still failing to get it. I think it's not a question of a lack of intelligence on your part, but rather of mulish obstinance. I get it - you don't like Biden because he doesn't cater to your politics. Boo fucking hoo. He doesn't cater to mine either, but I'm voting for him anyway because I'm not a petulant child. The problems this country is facing are far larger than the tiny myopic view you're choosing to adopt. One candidate doesn't care very much about progressive causes, and the other one is a wannabe dictator. At some point, you've got to grow up and realize that your priorities are completely out of whack.
Do you think that Donald Trump would prioritize women's reproductive freedom? Do you think that he would work to ensure that gay marriage isn't overturned by a supreme court who has already talked about the possibility of overturning Obergefell v Hodges?
You complain that Biden broke the railroad strike. Do you think that Trump would be any better? Trump, the guy who thinks so little of the common worker that he often refuses to pay his contractors.
You complain about Biden supporting Israel. Do you think that Trump, the guy who had the US embassy moved to Jerusalem over the extremely vocal opposition of Palestine, would be any better?
I don't think that you're insane, so I think you probably recognize that Donald Trump would be very bad for the causes you supposedly represent. Certainly worse for them than Joe Biden would. But, you're too focused on the dopamine hit that "taking the moral high ground" would represent to realize that your choices will make it more likely that Donald Trump will become president again.
There are precisely two candidates who have a shot at this. Both are bad. But one is miles worse than the other. Not voting, or voting third party isn't as bad as voting for Trump, certainly, but it doesn't help any of the rest of us out either. The fact is, there are 71 million people who voted for Trump in 2020. Those people will likely vote for him again. Which means that there needs to be significantly higher numbers of people voting for Biden to ensure that that orange fuck doesn't assume office again.
When I said that giving your vote to Biden would be in your own self interest, this is what I meant. You wouldn't be the first person to hold your nose at the ballot box because you wanted to avert a greater catastrophe. That's not compromising your principles. It's just being an adult and realizing that you're not always going to get your way, and that taking your ball and going home is a child's way out.
Yes. After decades of watching mulish obstinance by moderates and liberals resulting in the party and every commenter like yourself bending over backwards to serve them I'm gonna give it a try.
Then you better hope Biden doesn't need my vote or starts acting like it real fast.
We've never gotten our way. If you think drawing a line at 20 years of patience isn't sufficient to qualify as adult like behavior then I don't know what to tell you. Again, go tell moderates and liberals they've pushed us for too long. That's your only hope at this point. I'm done.
Justify it all you want, your behavior is selfish and self-destructive. It is child-like. It is throwing a tantrum in the cereal aisle because Mom won't buy you Cocoa Pebbles. Dressing it up in these flimsy, asinine justifications doesn't make you sound smart, it makes you sound deluded.
Why are you using this example to justify how democracy works? Who is "mom" in this situation? Why do they get to decide what we eat? Why would I need someone else to buy something for me? Why are you accusing me of acting like a child but the example simply defines me as a child? I'm not a child therefore I decide what I eat. Change your example to "You as a fully grown adult have decided what to eat" and suddenly my behavior is completely appropriate.
Do you see how ridiculous you sound?
I have no interest in your assessment. I have something you want and you would say anything to get it for free. The answer is "no this is mine you can't have it for free". You are reacting like a child to that statement.
Ok, it seems you're having trouble penetrating the depths of what is a fairly easy metaphor to grasp, so I'll break it down for you.
You complain that Biden (and presumably most, if not all Democratic presidents thusfar) caters to liberal and moderate political positions, but alienates progressives. You then stated that if he were instead to cater towards progressive positions, it would alienate liberals and moderates. To quote you:
So you ostensibly believe that Biden is in a no-win position, in which he will alienate either the progressives or the more moderate sections of his party. So far, so fine. However, where an adult would recognize that the system is imperfect and that it is not likely to improve by November, you whine and pout that you're not getting your way (ie. having a president that caters to your political desires), and so you're going to throw a tantrum in the cereal aisle (refuse to vote, thus making it more likely that someone who caters to your political desires far less than Biden would will become president).
It's a really simple analogy. And the thing is, I think you recognize that you are being childish. It would certainly explain why you were so reluctant to say that Trump would be worse for America than Biden - you recognized that you would rightly be called out for immaturity because you were prioritizing your selfish need for attention over the good of the nation.
Basically, I think that you know that you are selfish and immature, but you also are self-conscious about that fact. I think that instead of going through some much needed self-reflection, you instead lash out at the world, because that's a much easier way to salve your ego. I really hope that you do at some point reflect on your actions (or inactions, as the case currently stands), and begin the long and painful process of growing from it. You seem savvy enough to be able to actually contribute in a way that could make a difference, if only you manage to get out of your own way. Until then, you probably shouldn't be surprised that acting like a child leads people to treat you like a child.
they didn't say they believe this
Ok? I fail to see how what you pointed out in any way changes my response.
The analogy is simple sure. But you didn't answer a single question about the parallels. I am an adult living in a democracy so I decide who I will vote for. Go ahead and try to explain to me how that's at all parallel to me being a child not doing what a parent and provider has told me to do. You can't, because there is no parallel.
It's a tantrum. You are selfishly choosing to harm others because you aren't being catered to.
So are we in agreement there are no parallels? There is no mom? Nobody is picking out cereal for me? You just gave an example of a tantrum and called it an analogy?
Honestly, my friend, you're reading way too much into it. I expect in a desire to claw back some semblence of a win in order to salve your bruised ego, but hey - I'm not a psychologist. It was a really simple analogy. You're just being pedantic at this point. You don't need to find an exact parallel between every facet of the analogy and your situation for it to make sense.
Buddy, you're here lecturing me that I'm a child and you don't know the difference between an example and an analogy. Or worse it actually is an analogy because you believe that there is a "mom" in this situation and I should shut up and do what I'm told. You're not angry at me for acting like a child. Quite the opposite, you're angry at me for not acting like a child.
My vote is mine and you cannot have it for free. You want it? Work with Biden and get him to make material compromises with leftists and progressives. Anything else is you throwing a tantrum.
I think it's kind of hilarious that you're arguing so angrily and vehemently that you are not throwing a tantrum right now to some random stranger on the internet who called you childish. You're kind of making my day. <3
Yes, I know that. That's why I changed my voter registration to Republican and voted for Nikki Haley in the primaries. I don't particularly like her, but she's better than the worst possible candidate imaginable. Trump could have been kicked to the curb but I guess the uncommitted protest vote against Biden was more important.
"No, what he really means is..." - the trumpists you sound like.
You ok, bud?