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The Weekly Discussion Topic - Roguelikes - 28-07-2023 (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world to c/games@lemmy.world

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Hello all, this is the first post in a series of posts I'll be making weekly to drum up some diverse discussion relating to all different aspects of gaming. I figured I would start with what I know, and so the first topic is thus: roguelike games. (If you think any of the below description is wrong or misleading, let me know - that's part of the discussion!)

The name of this genre is derived from the game Rogue, released in 1980. The exact definition of a roguelike has been a topic of discussion for a long time, but the core tenets are usually agreed upon to be random/procedural generation and permanent death (no saving and continuing a run, you have to start over). Many roguelikes have an additional increased focus on collecting items and assembling a "build" over the course of a run. A "pure" roguelike is often claimed to have no meta-progression (that is, no procedural unlocks) and focus more on the journey than the destination - seeing how far you can get, or how high a score you can achieve, rather than reaching a distinct victory condition (not that these games don't have victory conditions, but that it isn't the end-all-be-all). The secondary term "roguelite" is often brought out to describe games that deviate from this. Additionally, the term "traditional roguelike" is sometimes employed to indicate a more strict adherence to the older style of this genre, with grid-based dungeon crawling and high complexity. Ultimately, as with a lot of genres, pinning down a 100% ironclad definition is near impossible, but most people that like this type of game could tell you the general "vibe" at a glance.

Here are some questions and subtopics that I encourage people to discuss:

What are some of your favorite examples of roguelike games?
What roguelike games do you think stand out in terms of defying the conventions of the genre?
Do you find there to be a meaningful difference between the usage of "roguelike" and "roguelite" nowadays? Which do you prefer? Where does the "traditional roguelike" fit into this?
Do you continue to play roguelike games after reaching the "end" / reaching 100% completion? Why, or why not?
What other genre do you most often enjoy seeing paired with roguelike?
Is any game with procedural generation and a run-based structure a roguelike, or is there more to it? Where do you personally draw the line?
What have been some of your best runs across all roguelike games? What's been memorable?
Are there any upcoming roguelike games you're excited for?

Also feel free to bring up anything you like related to the topic! If you have suggestions for future discussion topics, leave them in the suggestion thread.

Additional Resources

Steam listings for Roguelike
Steam listings for Roguelite
Wikipedia page for List of Roguelikes
Roguebasin, a wiki dedicated to roguelikes (specifically traditional roguelikes)
~~List of all Weekly Discussion Topics~~ (this is the first one, be patient!)

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[-] TheSpookiestUser@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

For the record and to hopefully explain with an example, I do like that they exist for people that like them and some games are fairly clever with it.

Oh I know. I apologize for the negative response you're getting, but I really do appreciate outside perspectives from people who don't like the thing - it can point out flaws that may be missed otherwise.

Most of it boils down to death as a core mechanic. I’m also a pretty casual game player and most of the games I like are fairly laid back, so the difficulty is also a factor. Although I do like difficult games sometimes, I don’t like games designed to kill you easily, if that makes sense. I dislike grinding and most leveling systems, so making a game have grinding as a necessity for someone like me who’s going to need it is frustrating. I feel like I’m just dying a bunch to get “level ups” so that I can actually play the game. Feel free to ask clarifying questions on this. It’s a bit difficult for me to explain, I’m finding.

This is mostly a feature of the modern roguelike, or rather roguelite - the metaprogression in general. Some roguelikes that aim to be truer to the original classification forgo this, like Pixel Dungeon and its variants - you could win on your very first run, the only thing holding you back would be the lack of accumulated knowledge and skill. All still involve a good amount of dying, though, which can be a turnoff - early runs can feel bland if the balance isn't right, and even later on the first part of each run can feel similarly bland if the game is more item-and-build based, as most don't give you much in the terms of starting items. I've felt this especially hard in games like The Binding of Isaac - outside of characters that deviate more from the standard, a lot of runs are a painful slog where you get a not very impactful item on the first floor and have to make your way through with base stats for a while.

If you want a random off-the-cuff suggestion from an internet stranger about a game in a genre you don't like, I tried out the demo for Wizard with a Gun during the last Steam NextFest. It is by some measure a roguelite, as it has a run based structure, but each run is rather short and if you don't die, you can escape back to a hub area with all of your resources, without losing anything, store some away for safe keeping and continue the next run from there. It has crafting and building elements (resource gathering and a research tree, but no hunger system or anything like that) and I quite liked it from what little I saw.