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this post was submitted on 27 May 2024
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How can players be sure they are honest?
People should be protected from scammers with fake (always lose) casinos.
"functioning according to their certification" doesn't prove to me that they aren't shaving the odds or injecting sneaky code into the process. I have to trust in the technical ability of the regulators.
Also, I could write "regulated by the Maltese" on the bottom of any website, it doesn't make it true.
They can't add sneaky code to the process (without getting caught). For sensitive game code every single change needs to be tracked and reviewed by the authority. You get audited at least once a year, and then all the changes are reviewed. Authorities outsource the job for the technical reviews to specialized companies.
Also, what's the point? The games already provide a margin to the host, why risking to go out of business for such an irrelevant gain (a few more %)? Add to this that usually casino games writers do just that, write games and sell those to N casinos. So the incentive for the casino games writers are even smaller.
Finally, yes you can write "license X", but you can cross-check that information from the regulator itself, you don't need to trust just the line on the site. The point is you as a customer can choose a trustworthy site, ideally one who is licensed in countries where regulations are quite tight (in Europe I would say Denmark), before putting your money somewhere.
At some point you need to trust "someone", that's how the whole world works. The gambling authorities are no different than the authorities that enforce the safety certifications for electrict equipment, or cars, or whatever.
If your concern is that you would lose money on casino games because the site rigged it, it's a relatively silly concern. You will lose because the casino games are designed to make you lose in the long term, on average.
That means that people have to check
Or just ignore that and publish whatever you like.
Why spend money to meet regulations?
How many users actually do this? A very low percentage.
The point is that many don't.
Not really. It's one of the reasons why online casinos can be bad.
The question was what is "wrong with online casinos". So I gave an example. Others include money laundering, exploitation of addiction, exploitation of stupidity, waste of resources, tax evasion etc .
Have you ever made a single transaction online paying with your credit or debit card? How do you know the site didn't steal or misuse your information?
The answer is that storing, transmitting or processing card data requires you to be PCI-DSS compliant, which is a very strict standard. If you get caught violating that you are out of business and fined in the abyss, which is a much bigger risk than stealing john doe's pennies.
Sorry but from what you are saying it seems you simply don't understand how compliance works.
And that is why you have at least annual audits (for each license, plus AML, plus other stuff), and why you need to present the whole chain of changes that happened to sensitive code.
Because if you get caught not doing that you lose access to whole markets at once and get fined. There is no economic incentive as complying doesn't cost nearly as much. Specifically, I told you that casino game makers are generally not casinos, they are software houses. So they can't care less about rigging the games, their revenue comes from companies paying for using their games. Casinos also don't care of rigging games because games are designed to leave them a certain margin anyway, so why doing it?
And that's why national regulations are generally a safe umbrella. If you see a website (through advertisements) that means that website is allowed locally and already met the national regulations.
If you are in a non regulated country then you will need to do a tiny bit of research. You are putting money on a site, after all (you should do the same for everything you do online).
Yes, you gave examples based on your own speculations. It's clear you have no idea how the industry works. Money laundering is something international law covers and is extremely tightly controlled, tax evasion is also completely insane for online businesses, because every transaction has a trail and there are tight regulations about what you need to report for every country where you operate. Exploitation of stupidity, sure. Some also exploit addiction, regulations exist for that too, and for some businesses addicts are terrible customers.
Question: what exactly is your experience with the gambling business?
Because to me it seems you are making stuff up or basing your statements on movies about gambling and oeganised crime, while the reality is much simpler: companies get money simply by having active users on their sites. Quantity is the name of the game.
Exactly. Scam websites can be casinos or shops or anything.
You are vehemently defending the "legitimate" casino industry whereas I am saying it's easy to create scam casinos.
I know well how it works.
Casinos, on and offline, are excellent ways to launder. The amount of regulations trying to mitigate this risk proves my point.
Glad we agree here.
Not for casinos. Gambling addiction is a casino's main business. Why are there no windows in Vegas?
Betfair, betfred, bet356, Ladbrokes etc.
Exchanges for sports and real life events I have little problem with.
I only have probems with sites that scam people with flashing lights and random number generators.
Yes. Online you can scam many more people with fake roulette tables.
Ok, you understand that this is a completely different set of businesses compared to established casino business, right?
Talking about scam website to infer things about the "real" counterparts doesn't make much sense. Yes, there is scam-everything. Doesn't mean "shops are scam", because there are shops which scam people. So when I talk about online casinos, I refer to the legitimate businesses that are gambling businesses, not scam organizations that happen to use gambling as their cover.
In any case, licenses are a very effective way to protect yourself from scammers.
As all systems that allow to move money, they are excellent vectors, but doesn't mean they are excellent ways to launder money. Regulations prevent money laundering (or strongly mitigating), which makes them less and less viable for laundering. I specifically talk about online casinos, since cash is not an option.
Online and physical casinos are different and they comply with different regulations. In online casinos for example it might be mandatory to limit session duration, show popups every X minutes to inform about losses and duration of the session etc., depending on licenses. These are just responsible gaming measures enforced by licenses (in this case the Maltese, which is a very common one), which do not apply to physical casinos.
So, this is the crux of the problem: your definition of scamming seems to be variable. There are only two options:
Both of them provide revenue for the host, with the second being marginally higher (you can't have 80% margin, people won't play). The second though has the problem that it won't pass certification, so the only way to serve it is on unlicensed sites. Being unlicensed makes it impossible to access whole markets. So, why companies should go for the second and not the first, when even the first is providing money and a bigger pool of players?
To support your claim, maybe you can list a bunch of articles about casinos getting caught with rigged games that were licensed? I did a quick search and nothing popped up immediately (although they might exist, and it's a good thing they got caught, which shows controls work).
As a user? Because that doesn't tell much. Anyway, bet365 has a casino, do you trust it?
From the user perspective they are the same. A scam casino is much easier to create than a scam Nike shop.
Not if the licence is fake.
"Might be mandatory" means that it might not be, and for certain casino operators don't want it.
Yes. There is the objective "designed to steal" scamming and my subjective dislike of betting against a dressed up random number generator.
No. But that is my subjective dislike.
Lots of anecdotes along the lines of
"online slots usually let you go up a bit and are relatively generous for the first 20-30 minutes of play, then the odds drop drastically when the algorithms realize you’re hooked/chasing the dragon"
https://www.smithfieldtimes.com/2024/01/14/6-common-casino-scams-to-avoid-online/
https://morganfinancialrecovery.com/scams/online-casino-scams/
https://www.legitgamblingsites.com/blog/online-casino-scams-be-aware-of/
"What I mean by this is my friend is a new bettor, we sit side by side watching the same games at the same time, and the odds are much worse for me. It will show -100000 on my screen and shows -8000 on my friends screen"
All betting sites have blacklists of customers taking advantage of arbitrage between sites.
Here are some common online betting scams copied from quora.
Fake Betting Sites: Scammers create fake betting websites that appear legitimate but are designed to steal your personal and financial information. Always ensure you're using reputable and licensed betting sites.
Phishing: Scammers send fraudulent emails or messages claiming to be from legitimate betting sites, asking for your login details, password, or payment information. Never share sensitive information through email or messages.
Too Good to Be True Offers: Scammers may promise guaranteed wins or insider information for a fee. They might also offer bonuses that seem too good to be true. These offers are often designed to take your money without delivering results.
Tipster Scams: Some scammers pose as expert tipsters or handicappers, offering betting tips or predictions for a fee. They may manipulate their records to show past success, but their actual tips might not yield positive results.
Unregulated Casinos: Betting on unregulated or unlicensed casinos can put your money and personal information at risk. Always choose licensed and regulated casinos and sportsbooks.
Rigged Games: In some cases, illegitimate gambling sites may manipulate game outcomes to ensure players lose. Stick to reputable sites that use random number generators and undergo regular audits.
Payment Scams: Scammers may ask for upfront payment to access their "winning system" or betting tips. Legitimate services do not require upfront payments for access to tips.
Match-Fixing Scams: Some scammers claim to have inside information about match-fixing or rigged games and offer to sell this information. This is often a ploy to steal your money.
Identity Theft: Scammers might impersonate betting sites to collect personal information for identity theft. Always ensure you're on a secure and legitimate site.
Unfair Terms and Conditions: Some betting sites have complex or unfair terms and conditions that make it difficult to withdraw winnings or bonuses. Always read the terms before betting.
it's not. Creating a game is much more complex than putting a bunch of images and text on a web page. Also in order to play casino games you need to deposit money, so you need to also develop that part, a scan shop can simply spoof the payment window and steal the card directly...
If you got to know about the casino, chances are it's a legitimate business. It doesn't take a PhD also to just double check the website. If you are looking for casinos online digging in the internet, rather than surfing the most prominent businesses, then yes. If you just pick the mainstream ones, you are covered. The chance you lose because the game is rigged is negligible. Also, you are putting money somewhere, you should make some basic checks (it's enough a 10 second search for the license ID and check your regulator website).
No, it means that it depends on licenses. Different licenses require different things. If you hold the Maltese license, you need to have it, period. Maybe there are licenses that don't prescribe that particular thing, hence "might be".
Games have to be random number generators lol. There is nothing to dress up, that's exactly what playing casino games is like. It's a RNG where you have the 50%-the margin chance to win. This has nothing to do with scamming, or rigging games, which was your initial argument.
Ok... lol
Absolutely the bookie will know the customers and might apply different limits and different odds. If you are suspected being a part of a syndicate, for example, you will get worse odds. This is not a scam, you see exactly what the odds are, it is not hidden from you. This applies to sportsbook, not casino.
This has nothing to do with casino or scamming. Also, sure betters are generally not blacklisted, they simply get limits applied as anyway to make any kind of money you need high volumes. Again, what does this have to do with rigging games? You can't "rig" sportsbook, when you bet you see clearly what the odds are and you can compare and choose another provider with better odds.
Wow, very useful dump. Have you read the "rigged games" part?
Note that 7/10 items in that list are simply scams by individuals targeting other individuals and have nothing to do with casinos. The only relevant ones are:
The solution for the first 2 is to use licensed providers. The last one is absolutely true, usually in bigger or established businesses, but has nothing to do with rigging games.
Basically nothing of this info dump from Quora (for what is worth) corroborates your argument...
To be honest, is it so hard to admit that you simply don't like gambling because it's taking money from people who don't know better? I agree with that myself, and it's a sufficient criticism to dislike casinos. There is no need to make up totally false information to add arguments.
No, mainstream, reputable and licensed casinos will not rig games and steal money from you. Yes, they will take money from you in the majority of cases because games - all of them - are designed to benefit the house. No, they don't help laundering money because in most cases they will get caught and lose the whole business, it's very, very, very hard to hide activity when you have multiple regulators plus the usual government agencies look at your reports constantly, and all your transactions are tracked.
That's why scammers usually just pirate and hack small parts of the codebase.
You don't get as much money that way. Better to encourage larger deposits and "crash" when large withdrawals are requested.
Not necessarily. Popups and emails exist. Especially interesting if they offer free spins.
The original question was "what is wrong with online casinos". One answer I gave was scammers, then you pressed me for more.
DUDE. This is the point. You can't argue that online casinos are fine so long as you ignore all the bad casinos and scammers.
Fuck me. You admit online casinos are unfair then immediately dismiss this as unimportant. Now I suspect I'm arguing against a paid troll.
Sure.
EDIT: I don't even dignify with an answer "hack small parts of the codebase". I can clearly see you have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about.
Then this is not a rigged game. Again, you said that games are rigged to scam people...
True, and that's if the site find you, rather than viceversa. No different than phishing...
Your original answer was specific: rigged games and money laundering. None of which is generally true.
I already clarified what I consider an "online casino". it's irrelevant what a scam website is, it doesn't say anything about the industry it tries to imitate...
Don't move the goalpost. Some casinos use complicate T&C, this has nothing to do with rigging games.
Again, the fact that your arguments are hairdresser gossip doesn't make me a paid troll. I know the industry and I can use facts to criticize it, which I do (I left it for a reason). You make stuff up and keep changing your argument...
Rigged games is the only point you want to address, then you fail to do so when given the opportunity.
https://www.legitgamblingsites.com/blog/online-casino-scams-be-aware-of/
Casino Scam Two: Rigged Games This casino gaming scam is fairly simple. They run rigged games which let you win for a while, but ultimately rinse you of every penny. This one doesn’t require 4D chess or deviousness fit for a Bond villain, just good old-fashioned rigged software.
The scam casino software companies which create rigged games are fairly well-known by most people who play regularly online or work in the online betting industry. Respected casinos don’t work with them, and respected casino software companies don’t usually work with casinos that do. That’s an important thing to note, because it is the first step to avoiding rigged games. If you see Microgaming, Playtech, NetEnt, or other powerhouse casino software companies in the mix, it’s highly likely that you’re dealing with a legitimate online casino.
However, scam casino operators have gotten wise to this, and as a result, they run pirated versions of otherwise legit games. They’re much more difficult to spot for the untrained eye, because they are clones of the original games with a tweaked code to cheat you.
Dude, you are changing the argument again, as usual.
I got it. Yes, scam website exist. Yes, scan shop websites exist, as exist phishing banking sites, and a universe of things.
You said:
This is complete bullshit.
Pirating a game only means copying the look of a legitimate game served on "real" casinos. There is nothing to hack, because you don't have the codebase. Netent, playtech, evolution, microgaming, they all serve their games via iframes or similar, they integrate with you via API, they whitelist your IPs or authenticate yourself with a token. Scam casinos might simply look at real games and imitate them, exactly like you might do a fake shop and copy - say - Amazon's look.
And for the 100th times, this is a negligible problem if you are playing on licensed websites, which in turn used licensed gaming providers.
You are conflating arguments that apply to scam website as if these apply to the wider industry, they don't! If you are talking about banking, you wouldn't say "banks steal your data", because there are scammers that use bank websites to phish people. They are a completely different thing. So, as clear as it can be:
I can't be clearer than this.
I linked to an external source showing it is not bullshit.
Your arguments for online casinos not being scams are based solely on excluding scams from your definition of online casinos.
Your source didn't confirm in any way what you said. Making lookalikes have nothing to do with "hacking small parts of the codebase".
Also the source itself is a random website lol
My argument is that casinos don't need to scam by rigging games. A scam site is no more a casino than a phishing site is a banking site. Do you think banking sites are scams?
Your initial statement was a blanket statement about casinos "rigging games" and "helping laundering money for a cut". Now you are defending the hill that some scammers use casinos as their vector for scams, which is a completely different thing, that nobody questioned also. It simply has nothing to do with " casinos".
But I see you are one of those people who are clinically incapable of admitting you said something incorrect, even after you said tons of incorrect stuff and you showed to have a very superficial understanding of the gambling industry (my favorite was when you called games "dressed up RNGs, when they are required to be RNG by law, and you really want them to be...).
And this opinion is incorrect. I would accept that some online casinos don't need to scam by rigging games.
Incorrect. I've posted multiple examples of online casino scams, including rigging the games.
Some are.
Look at the top of this thread. The question was "Why are online casinos bad".
No, it's not. I discussed and explained already to you that there are several reasons:
You instead provided 0 explanation about what you are claiming.
You didn't post any example. You posted statements that mentioned that some website can spoof casinos with rigged games. Those are not casino websites, they hold no licenses and they are not established businesses. They are not part of an industry, exactly like scam banking website are not part of the financial industry.
False, again. They are not banking sites lol. No bank would phish their users. There are scammers who impersonate banks, exactly like they impersonate casinos. Your whole argument relies on calling scammers that do X part of the X industry. They are not.
And your answer in fact is completely incorrect. Rather than admitting that you have 0 proof or arguments that casinos rig games and enable laundering money, you are now relying purely on a definition of casinos that include the casino scam sites.
I will repeat, your argument is exactly as absurd as the following:
Then, when confronted about this, you would provide https://getcomputeractive.co.uk/protect-your-tech/fake-bank-website-URLs which says:
thinking it is proof. It's not.
As I said, you clearly have no idea about the industry, you said so many things that show it and then glanced over them to avoid embarrassment, and you ended up moving the goalpost so far, that now your entire stance relies on the fact that scam casino websites are online casinos. The initial question "why are online casinos bad" clearly referred to businesses which...run online casinos. And 100% your initial answer referred to that too, but once you couldn't support your argument in any way, you retreated purely onto the scam websites that impersonate casinos.
Is it so hard for you to admit that you made a big statement about something you are not fully knowledgeable?
See links above why scamming and online casinos are linked.
You are not approaching this from a user perspective
If it looks like a banking site, then it is banking site.
If it looks like an online casino then they are an online casino.
Incorrect.
Ok, I see you are now fully entrenched on your position, with absolutely no ability to defend it. You are hanging onto that random site that says that yes - fake casinos exist, for your dear life.
ahahaha, yes, a scammer creating a fake banking site from a scammed person perspective is doing a banking site. But here we are discussing about banks (or casinos) so you realize this argument is completely irrelevant, right?
Finally we reached the core flaw in your argument! If we are talking about banking sites, and - say - we discuss the security measures needed on them, nobody would think to include phishing sites into the discussion, because it's meaningless. The question you answered to was about online casinos, and was obviously referring to the businesses which run online casinos, not "any site which looks as an online casinos from an aesthetic point of view", because this is a completely dumb way to characterize stuff. There is a scam in which someone "sells" a box for something (say, a camera), and then you open it and there is a rock. Your argument is basically like saying "cameras suck, some don't even do pictures", because you consider those rocks cameras, since they were in camera boxes and sold as such.
I am 99% sure you actually don't believe your own argument, and you are just doubling and tripling down on it because admitting to be wrong on the internet is basically impossible.
Oh yeah?
OP was clearly talking about actual gambling businesses. They were trying to ask an opinion about why people consider gambling bad, in relation to the agency of people to play (or not play) on them.
Now you are trying to bullshit your way through, pretending that your answer was related to scam websites, and not actual casinos. Let's remember your first answer:
You specifically talk about the gambling industry. Once again, if you really want to base your whole argument on the fact that scam websites belong to the industry they spoof, then feel free to embarrass yourself. It's clear to anybody what you meant in your first comment, but you couldn't defend it (because it's bullshit), and now you are trying to get away with a rhetorical argument that is even worse. Really dude, we all said shit on the internet, admit you just said some stereotypical bullcrap and move on with your life :)
Incorrect. Learn to recognize 'spoofing' and 'phishing'
Incorrect
Incorrect. OP clearly wrote "online casinos".
You clearly have a guilty conscious about the money you earned from gamblers. Or you are being paid for this shilling.
The problem with online casinos is that they are associated with a huge number of scams.
Jesus.... Let me spell it out even more clearly: if someone is creating a new standard for banking sites, they don't expect those goddamn measures to apply to phishing websites, because they are not considered part of the industry. Nobody discussing the banking industry would consider phishing sites PART OF it. it's relevant to discussing phishin FOR the industry, but it's not a problem OF banking sites. Because "banking site" means inherently a legitimate banking site.
And online casinos don't include fake online casinos.
But ok, let's clarify once and for all.
Let's pretend you actually believe your bs, and let's make a distinction:
To which ones do you think your initial answer applies:
?
Do you think that online casinos as defined above run rigged games? Do you think they help laundering money?
At least I will give you an out and you don't need to keep climbing mirrors.
No, I simply don't like bullshit, and your arguments are full of it. I strongly dislike the gambling industry, but for reasons based on facts, not on what I heard in the beauty salon :) In fact, my whole point is that there are good, solid reasons to dislike gambling and online casinos. The bullshit you quoted is not part of it because it's false.
Not part of the discussion. You are straining pretty hard in your efforts to "win".
Yes, they do. The clue is in the name.
I am making an example to prove a point. The point is simple "industry" doesn't contain the scammers who try to abuse it.
Genius take!
Answer the question, though. I repost it for your own convenience. We clear out all the bullshit semantic you brought up, and go straight to the point:
Let’s pretend you actually believe your bs, and let’s make a distinction:
To which ones do you think your initial answer applies:
?
It does. To illustrate this I linked to a bank website containing advice on combating phishing.
Here's the definition I'm happy with.
Legitimate casinos = established businesses in the casino industry
Fake casinos = scammers
Online casinos = legitimate casinos + fake casinos
Combined because users find it hard to tell the difference.
Answer the question, your definition doesn't add much.
To which ones does your initial answer apply? Both legitimate and fake casinos?
It's not a hard question.
P.s. I bet you wouldn't be able to show me a fake casino if I asked. That's because they are not a common problem. You are overinflating it to make your absurd definition more reasonable. But let's not get into this...
Online casinos.
https://www.askgamblers.com/online-casinos/blacklisted
Your definition of "legitimate casino" excludes any casinos that rig games.
All businesses with financial operations are exposed to money laundering to some degree.
Regulations increase costs to implement. Only "legitimate casinos" fight them.
It's YOUR definition ahahah I literally took what you said and I am asking a question.
YOU said, legitimate + fake = online. I asked to which you applied the answer and you said online. Now you are saying it doesn't?
So, do we agree that legitimate casinos don't rig games?
Also, you mentioned taking a cut to help laundering money, now you are retracting saying "are exposed". No dude, taking a cut has intentionality behind, being exposed is a natural risk for any business which moves money. You claimed the first.
So, one last time:
Nope. It's you who is obsessed with separation of "legitimate casinos".
Correct
Incorrect.
You have defined legitimate casinos as ones that don't rig games.
Incorrect. I said casinos are used to launder money.
No retraction necessary.
Online casinos rig games. You have defined legitimate casinos as ones that don't rig games. A normal internet user cannot tell the difference.
Yes. Not necessarily knowingly. Income from internet gambling is tainted.
Your quote:
You forgot already? A link to your own comment.
I didn't define shit, you defined legitimate casino as a partition of online casino.
Look what triple jump you are making to avoid saying a very simple thing: legitimate casinos, defined as YOU did (established businesses in the casino industry) don't rig games. All because you can't admit to be wrong :)
So, I will ask once again:
Yes or no question.
I would argue with this point, but I won't. It doesn't matter, I accept the theoretical possibility of money laundering. For some reason I was mistakenly taking the top comment of this thread as your comment. I even quoted it several times and you didn't note that that's not your comment... my bad.
Here is your definition (not mine) where you separate "legitimate businesses" from "scam organizations"
So when I talk about online casinos, I refer to the legitimate businesses that are gambling businesses, not scam organizations that happen to use gambling as their cover
I'm saying this line is not clear cut, particularly for the average Internet user. A yes/no answer is not possible.
Easily done. Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, but I am asking to answer according to your own definition! I specified it, I quotes it, I wrote YOUR in caps, I can't add flashing lights or I would.
You provided a definition, I am asking a simple question with that definition in mind.
According to YOUR definition, do legitimate casinos rig games?
Come on, how many more comments do you need to answer this simple query?
Online casinos rig games.
From the end user point of view, the subset of legitimate casinos (that, following your definition, don't rig or scam) cannot be easily identified.
I give up. You refuse to engage in good faith.
What user can tell is irrelevant, we are talking about your "taxonomy" and the properties that carries being in one or other category.
You might not be able to distinguish a legitimate casinos by a fake one, but if in your opinion legitimate ones also rig games, this is irrelevant. If they don't, then what users can tell is a completely separate problem.
No. That's what you are trying to forum slide to.
I'm sticking to the point that online casinos are scammy, including legitimate, regulated operators.
Not just me. Any average Joe.
Your doggedness for wanting agreement that some casino games may not be rigged is impressive
But a problem very much related to "what's wrong with online casinos".
Indeed I want to make a distinction. Because thinking legitimate casinos rig games is completely different from thinking scammy ones do.
In fact, you had no argument whatsoever to prove those do, including your external sources that recommended basically in all cases to stick to licensed sites, proving that there is a difference (duh). On the other hand, having worked in the industry and understanding both how casinos integrate games and how compliance works, I have explained to you why there are generally not technical means AND no economic incentive for legitimate casinos to rig games.
I will repeat the points for you:
The above applies to essentially every licensed casino, every legitimate casino.
You failed to acknowledge any of these points, and you argued for 15 comments about scammy websites, bringing now the conversation back to where we started.
The reason why I want an agreement that legitimate (not some!) casinos don't rig games is specifically because I provided arguments (technical and economical) for why that's the case. So your refusal to make any distinction while also refusing to provide any proof to support your claim just results in a vague and messy discussion, exactly like your insane definition of "online casinos" that includes scam websites. You refuse to be accurate :)
It's not. It's something casinos (real ones) can't do anything about, the same way banks or shops can't do anything about. This is an extremely tiny problem because official means exist to recognize legitimate ones since there are trusted authorities that certify them. In fact, given the existence of central national authorities it is much easy to be sure that a casino is legitimate than a shop, for example. I will tell you more: rigged games (and therefore fake casinos) are a MINOR problem in the industry in general. It is absolutely a terrible argument to say what's wrong with casinos, because it's something the vast majority of the people will never even encounter in a life of gambling. However, there are plenty of reasons why casinos can be considered bad based on the regular operations of legitimate casinos, not based on your fairytales.
So yes, I am stuck on wanting an acknowledgement that legitimate casinos don't rig games because I know how that works, unlike you. Here is how I conclude this conversation, since we are at a moot point:
If you fail to acknowledge tha rigging games is very very unlikely (I will keep the theoretical possibility in case there are suicidal CEOs) in legitimate casinos, then I will call your argument bullshit until you have any proof. Specifically, you should explain what economic incentive do legitimate casinos (licensed) to rig games, and how do you think they can do that. If you fail to provide any argument in support of this while also refusing to make a distinction in your original claim, then I know you are arguing in bad faith, so I will simply block you and move on.
You have defined legitimate casinos as only ones that don't rig games or do scams. A priori you are correct.
There are enough illegitimate online casinos to create a problem for the whole industry.
Online casinos = scam
They don't have enough users so they need to squeeze their regular punters harder.
Even your beloved "legitimate" casinos do "rig" games by offering different odds at different times to different people. They scam people by restricting the amount that can be withdrawn (and other ToS tricks). They create user interfaces to maximise player losses.
I am in no way using this definition right now, I am using the definition you provided (established businesses) and I generally use it interchangeably with "licensed", because to operate you need at least a license.
So it's not a tautology.
Incorrect. Also creating a problem for is not defining the industry itself. There are phishing bank sites to create a problem for the banking industry, but only an idiot would answer "they steal your identity/card details" to the question "why are online banks bad".
Incorrect. You forgot to address "how". I will also add another item to the "you have no idea what you are talking about". Players losing is a sure way to lose even more customers. In fact if you knew something about the industry you would know that new companies operate on much lower margins that established ones. Bet365 might operate on a 7-9% margin, a new company operates on 1,2,3%. The idea that squeezing more existing customers, besides being technically impossible, is absurd. It's a huge business risk (you lose your license and then you will have 0 customers).
First, I don't like casinos, despite having worked for one, I have played on less sites than you did. I like even less bullshit though, hence my pleasure in clearing the world from yours. Second, that is not rigging at all. You know it, I know it, it is absolutely not what you meant, and I am embarrassed for you for trying to use this terrible rethorical trick to now bend the word rigging. Rigging means that you expect the odds to win are X but instead behind the scene are Y (<X). Offering odds first of all is not a casino thing, it's a sportsbook thing, and second of all is transparent to the user. Finally, odds obviously change over time, as estimated probability does...
Listen, you are just a guy on the internet with a big mouth and a family supply of bad faith. I showed you multiple times that your claim are bullshit and that much smarter people than you took care of the problems you claim affect casinos (rigged games and money laundering).
You failed to provide any argument from any of your claims and now you proved to argue in bad faith. As promised, I will make you a favour and block you, so you don't have to keep embarrassing yourself. Take this as a chance to reflect on maybe not arguing on something you don't understand fully, and maybe to learn from someone who knows more than you, as I try to do in the many occasions where I make mistakes or know little about something. Your claim at the moment is false. It's a conspiracy theory that you repeat and might believe, but it's false. Deal with it. You can use the very real and many reasons to consider casinos bad, do that.
Blocking someone is the Lemmy equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la I can't hear you".
But if this civil discussion has led you to that point then maybe we should let the topic lie and get on with our lives.
There are ways to cryptographically verify bet integrity, but that's not important. The point I was trying to make is that people should have the right to make their own decisions, even if you disagree with them, even if they're objectively wrong.
If you are objecting about one person's morals being forced on another then I totally agree.
Your delivery of that argument needs work because it comes across as wanting to defend scammers.
At no point was he defending scammers. This is insane.
Playing innocent and asking why online casinos are bad.
Yes. He’s asking a question? Why is an online casino bad?
If the casino follows all rules and regulations, then that is not bad.
If talking about sites that steal your money and don’t pay out when you “win”, then yes, that is bad, and a scam. But that’s not an online casino…that’s a scam. And also incredibly rare.
An online casino can make a shit ton of money by just following the rules. Why would they need to break the rules?
Excellent. You understand the point.
Excellent. You have no idea what you’re talking about :)
https://youtu.be/j95kNwZw8YY
Gotta upvote the dude