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this post was submitted on 30 Jun 2024
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Anyone: Russia or China did something fucked up.
lemmy.ml: BUT WHAT ABOUT...!
These people are so black and white, it completely boggles the mind. They live in "X is bad so Y must be good!"
X and Y are both completely fucked and if you can't see that, then so are you.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what I believe when I haven't said a word of that.
What is it with you people and just making up what people believe, whole cloth? Guess it's just easier to argue against someone who's made of straw and only exists in your head.
You're right, assumptions were made, though your lack of context for posting that picture definitely lends itself to my narrative. Not refuting anything I said also doesn't help to destraw yourself.
Please, take this opportunity to clear the air and let us all know that you're aware of how damaging Chinese and Russian policies are for their people, just like Western capitalism for its people.
Russia is a reactionary, capitalist state with policies damaging to their people, especially LGBT people but also generally towards everyone.
I could understand why you might think that I like the USSR based on the context of the image I shared, but the Russian Federation destroyed and replaced the USSR with a capitalist government, so I can't say I follow your reasoning about my supposed beliefs at all.
As for China, how on earth is that even relevant to the conversation? I have a more sympathetic view of China than of Russia, on account of the whole, "Responsible for three quarters of all poverty reduction in the past 40 years" thing, but that doesn't mean that they don't have flaws, like anywhere does. It wasn't that long ago that the majority of Americans held a favorable view of China, before the whole propaganda blitz we're in now started.
I'm sure that by complying with your request (irrelevant as it was), you're going to back off from your false, imagined claims about me and not just use this opportunity to latch onto something I said and jump down my throat again, right? Because you're definitely acting in good faith.
I'm not part of the conversation, but I wanted to let you know that I appreciated your response. I believe that the USSR was very fucked too, hence the coup, but I appreciate your candid and honest reply.
Right, I mean, the whole idea of someone who just blindly agrees with anything that has ever done by anyone waving a red flag is kind of silly. If the USSR didn't have flaws, then it wouldn't have collapsed. People would rather just pretend communists are all like that because they don't want to engage with what we actually believe, which is generally more nuanced.
There are certainly those types of people on Lemmy, but you have shown that you're not one of them.
Here's a couple observations: you attempted to discredit what I said by invoking the straw man argument while asserting what "you people" all do in the same breath.
You also ended your last comment by offering the false dichotomy that my 2 options are "backing off my false claims" or not acting in good faith.
Third, for how active you are in commenting and debating, it's disingenuous at best to pretend that my assumptions were random words strung together. If you comment in lemmy.ml on any of the omnipresent Chinese or Russian-centric posts with anything other than adoration, you're banned.. Criticism isn't allowed in any of the major communities there and you're obviously aware of that.
You're not the paragon of fairness, honesty, or logic that you'd like us to believe.
That's demonstrably false, and you're obviously aware of that.
If all you're interested in is strawmanning, ad hominem, and repeated lies, then I'm not interested in continuing this conversation.
"If all you're interested in is describing the exact experience of a lot of people, all I can do is disengage because I have no leg to stand on."
The Uyghur genocide is an abomination, don't you agree?
See, this is why the correct approach to bad faith actors is to never give an inch, because they'll just keep going on the offensive and jumping to new topics, no matter how reasonably you treat them. Because they're acting in bad faith and don't actually care what you actually believe, they just want to make you look bad.
Unfortunately, I'm nice so I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt even when I shouldn't. Allow me to correct my mistake.
Ahem. Why do you support Israel's genocide, fascist? Lots of people have seen people like you supporting it so you must too. Denounce it right now or it'll prove you hate Palestinians.
Don't worry, if you do, I'll have another accusation ready and waiting for you, just like how you do.
That would be a reasonable thing to suggest if my account was on the americafirst.trump2024 server and I replied to a picture of the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians with a picture of a Palestinian doing something fucked up.
Genocide is an abomination, whether it's the Israeli government doing it to the Palestinians or the Chinese government doing it to the Uyghurs. We can all agree on that, right?
...right?
Do you denounce the Biden administration's restrictions on trans healthcare?
If you do, I'll have another thing to demand you to denounce right after. I'll throw your tactics right back in your face.
This exchange has been the same thing I've repeatedly seen or personally experienced with tankies.
They end up thinking that their "gotcha" will be expressing fucked up Western policies or actions. They do this because, as I originally stated, they hate the thing they know (Western capitalism) and therefore embrace "the other thing" to feel like they're on the "right" side. They assume that everyone else is doing the same, and that by being critical of Communist governments, we must love Western governments.
And as I also said up front, THEY'RE BOTH SHIT, and if you can't see that, you're very simple. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend. You're not on the good guys' side just because they're opposed to the bad guys. It's the Crips vs the Bloods, not Batman vs the Joker.
I hope you wake up to this very basic truth someday, but I've continued this conversation more for other people, to show them the holes in your line of thinking.
Are you still pretending like you were acting in good faith? Lmao. First you jumped down my throat with baseless accusations, then you demanded that I criticize Russia, then when I did, you sensed blood in the water and came after me even harder.
You know for a fact at this point that your accusations were false, you don't care. Because it was never about saying things that you actually believe, it was about going on the offensive and saying anything to make me look bad.
I don't care about making you look bad. I'm throwing light onto some fucked up beliefs that get dressed up with "fuck America!" to make them more attractive to simple minds. The fact that you embrace these beliefs is irrelevant to me. This is for the reader, not you.
It does bring context to your righteous indignation that you've so closely tied the discrediting of your beliefs to a personal attack.
Thank you for admitting it was just about trying to make another side look bad and that you had no interest in what I actually believed. That's the first honest thing you've said this conversation.
For those playing at home, here's a recap: being critical of Communist regimes makes you a "bad actor" (Jesus, tankies love that term. It's their magical spell that they invoke to avoid having to defend the asinine beliefs), I've committed every argument fallacy known to man, and all I care about it making someone look bad by virtue of speaking to their own claims.
If you'd like a more personalized experience, head on over to lemmy.ml and suggest that China's current, very well-documented genocide exists. You can be a bad actor too!
People who take this approach are very wrapped up in identify, which is clearly the case for the person I've been having fun with if you care to check out their comment history. They need to be part of a group and feel righteous. They need all the lines defined for them. As is so often the case, they repeat big and little lies without really understanding what they're saying.
They're the same type of people who identify the horrors perpetuated by the Republican party so they say they're a die-hard Democrat. And to head off the next inevitable reply, no, both sides aren't the same. But they serve the same master, and neither gives 2 fucks about the well being or will of the people.
OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml needs to have a very rigorous identify to the point of not understanding or caring to understand what it is their chosen group actually believes or does. It's about belonging and feelings like they're in control.
All my homies hate the atrocities committed under Western capitalism AND the CCP's version of it. If you think it's about anything other than power and control for the wealthy, you're just another one of their tools.
There there, let it out. I know you were just holding that in from before you even saw my first comment and that it's completely unrelated to anything I said. I hope you said what you needed to say. Sometimes you just gotta vent.
Tankies are cosplaying SJWs akin to Catholics who say that every kid who claimed a priest molested them is a liar, and also we need to be investigating what those kids were wearing, and sex with adults is actually beneficial for kids, and what about child brides in Muslim communities?
Oh, you had more. Keep going, you're only proving that you approached this conversation in bad faith. I should've told you to fuck off from the start when you made it clear you were only interested in lobbing baseless accusations, but I'm just too nice so I gave you a chance anyway.
You're exactly as advertised.
For those following along, notice how they never addressed any point and instead tried to personally discredit me. This is because they don't have logic or fact on their side.
This is the tankie way.
Arguing with a tankie is like playing chess with a pigeon. They'll shit all over the board and still strut around like they won.
Don't be like them. Don't pick a side because it's trendy and goes against the norm. Identify and fight fascism in all its forms, not just "the other team's" atrocities.
(take special note of the gymnastics that they had to perform to make sure they didn't admit that China is performing it's own genocide, since that would upset other people on their team).
It is encouraging that they're ratioed and are as transparent to everyone else as they are to me.
I know it's gotta feel pretty bad to be so bad at making any relevant point when you're so verbose. I hope that someday you mature enough to be able to admit that you never really understood what you were supporting other than feeling like you're part of a group.
Hilarious. All I did was throw your tactics right back in your face. You came out of the gate slinging accusations at me, I responded to those accusations, then you came up with a new set of accusations, and if I'd responded to those you would've done it again and again. I would've been happy to have a discussion about whatever if you hadn't done that, and people who engage with me in good faith get good faith responses.
yoU'Re JUsT tOo NicE!
You say potato, I say just another kid who lacks critical thinking and loves to get ratioed
So let me know your actual position. Your post history shows how unacceptable you find genocide against trans people to be, but then you identify as trans.
I AM interested in your actual position. How do you feel about genocide against something that you don't identify as, like.. oh, let's says Uyghurs.
What's your actual position on the CCP's genocide of Uyghurs?
I'm opposed to the Biden administration's restrictions on trans healthcare.
What's your position on the CCP's genocide of Uyghurs?
When you're forcibly disappeared to a "reeducation camp," I know you'll be as open-minded as you are now and assert to all the other trans people packed into your boxcar that there's not really enough evidence to classify it as genocide.
I know your looooove to be a victim but it's not my fantasy. It's just where the US could easily be headed.
And I'm definitely not a liberal.
And do you really need me to pop "Uyghur genocide" into a search engine for you? sigh
Ok, he's a fun starting point: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China&diffonly=true
It's the Wikipedia entry for it, and it has 577 sources.
So your going to laugh off that place where accumulated knowledge ends up, specifically for an article with 577 sources? You don't want to read it first? Dispute the claims it makes one at a time? Check out just a couple of the 577 sources? That's 577 more than you've provided, btw.
And if I'd linked directly to the sources, what would you have said? "That's just propaganda!" That's the one I hear the most from tankies. If an article fits your narrative, even if/especially if it's from State-run news in China, it's gospel. Anything else, even if it's corroborated by different journalists and agencies around the world? Western propoganda!
I wonder if you'd give a shit about trans genocide if you weren't trans.
Jesus Christ, the fucking dissonance. 1 day ago you repeated the the DS9 "nothing justifies genocide" meme. And here you are, simping for fascists because.. well why? It's trendy? It makes you feel important? To differentiate yourself from the status quo? Whatever little shot of superiority dopamine you get from toeing a line that you don't understand can't be worth the denial of human rights for an entire people.
I know nothing I say makes a difference to you. You've dug in. It's part of your identify and you're scared to lose or evolve it. Maybe you wouldn't feel special anymore, I dunno, who cares.
For anyone else reading this, don't be them. Don't get brainwashed to the point where genocide isn't genocide and the only issues that matter are the ones that affect you personally. Look at their comment history. Look at this conversation. This is not a happy or confident person.
Be better.
/thread
It's demonstrably true and has been widely discussed for at least a year now.
The fact that some critical comments got removed does not prove that "anything other than adoration" results in a ban.
You're absolutely right, I could say "China is a country with over 1.4 billion people" and not get banned, despite that not being adoration.
Yet any common or good-faith reading of that phrase would not imply that neutral statements are included under the ban.
Any other bailey you'd like to run to?
What's your demanded ratio for censorship to count as censorship? 1 removed for every 10 that remain? 1-1? 2-1? 10-1?
How are you acting like you were right after admitting you were wrong? Quite an interesting rhetorical trick.
Motte and Bailey doesn't give you license to put words into my mouth.