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this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2024
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Workers are de facto responsible for creating the opportunities that employers gate keep. Employers violate workers' inalienable rights. The workers are de facto responsible for using up inputs to produce outputs, but the employer gets sole legal responsibility for the positive and negative results of production. This violates the principle that legal and de facto responsibility should match.
No one is responsible for creating land. Landlords deny everyone's equal claim to land
@politics
Your assertion that employers violate workers' inalienable rights by controlling opportunities does not align with the principles of a free society.. Employers provide opportunities through their legitimate ownership of capital and resources, and workers voluntarily agree to the terms of employment. This voluntary exchange is a fundamental aspect of a free market. Legal and de facto responsibilities are aligned through voluntary contracts, and any perceived imbalance does not justify infringing on property rights.
As for landlords and land, the legitimate acquisition and ownership of property are central to individual liberty. If landlords have acquired land through just means, they have the right to control its use. The idea of equal claims to land undermines the principles of justice in acquisition and transfer of holdings. Historical injustices in acquisition should be rectified, but this does not negate the current rights of property owners.
An employer, in principle, can hire both labor and capital, so they don't have to own capital. In practice, employers tend to be corporations that own capital due to bargaining power.
Workers consent to employment terms, but they can't fulfill them. The problem is that consent is not a sufficient condition to transfer de facto responsibility.
Abolishing employment doesn't infringe on property rights. Employment contracts infringe on labor's property rights to the fruits of labor
@politics
While it is true that an employer may theoretically hire both labor and capital, in practice, the most efficient and productive enterprises are those where employers possess and manage capital. This ownership enables the coordination and investment necessary for innovation and progress. The bargaining power you mention is not an arbitrary imposition but a natural consequence of providing value through the creation and management of capital.
I'm aware of the standard line.
De facto responsibility can't be transferred from the employees solely to the employer to match the legal responsibility assignment in the employer-employee contract. A thought experiment showing this is to consider an employer and employee cooperating to commit a crime. The employee can't argue that they sold their labor, and are not responsible. The law correctly applies the principle of legal and de facto responsibility matching. Both are criminous
@politics
Responsibility is an inescapable part of human existence. Each individual must be accountable for their actions, regardless of the roles they play within a larger organisation. The idea that an employee can absolve themselves of responsibility by claiming they merely sold their labor is a dangerous fallacy. It undermines the very essence of individual autonomy and moral agency.
Consider the case of an employer and an employee conspiring to commit a crime. Both parties are making conscious choices, and thus, both bear the responsibility for those choices. Attempting to transfer blame entirely to the employer is not only logically flawed but morally indefensible. The employee, in choosing to participate in the crime, exercises their own judgment and will, and must face the consequences of those actions.
The law rightly reflects this reality by holding both the employer and the employee accountable. This alignment of legal responsibility with de facto responsibility is essential for a just and moral society. Each person must recognize and accept their own role in their actions and the inherent responsibilities that come with it. To do otherwise is to deny one's own humanity and the ethical duty to live as a rational, self-determined being.
Thank you for making my argument for me. Now, what morally relevantly changes when workers cooperate to produce a widget on behalf of the employer instead of committing crimes for the employer? Do they become non-conscious non-responsible robots? No.
Legal responsibility matching de facto responsibility implies that all firms should be mandated to be worker coops, and rules out employer-employee contracts. In worker coops, the workers are jointly legally responsible for the results
@politics
The notion that legal responsibility should align with de facto responsibility and thereby necessitate that all firms operate as worker cooperatives, banning employer-employee contracts, is an egregious affront to the principles of individual rights and freedom. This proposition assumes a collectivist paradigm where the individual’s agency and sovereignty are subsumed under the collective will of the group.
In the moral universe that respects individual liberty, each person has the right to enter into contracts of their own volition. The employer-employee relationship is one such contract, where each party consents to specific terms for mutual benefit. To mandate that all firms must function as worker cooperatives is to obliterate the sanctity of voluntary association, replacing it with a coerced collectivism that is antithetical to the very essence of a free society.
Worker cooperatives may be suitable for some, but to impose this structure universally disregards the diverse needs and aspirations of individuals. It denies the entrepreneur the right to create and lead a venture according to their vision, and it strips employees of the choice to enter into employment agreements that they find advantageous.
Legal responsibility should indeed align with de facto responsibility, but this alignment must be rooted in the acknowledgment of individual rights and the freedom to choose. Forcing all firms to become worker cooperatives would destroy the foundation of capitalism—the system that recognises and protects individual rights, allowing for innovation, productivity, and human flourishing.
The tenet that legal and de facto responsibility match, when applied to property theoretic questions, is the tenet that people have an inalienable right to appropriate the positive and negative fruits of their labor. The latter is the principled basis of property rights. Since employment violates the former principle, it also violates the latter. Employment contracts violate property rights' principled basis.
Labor isn't transferable.
The foundations of capitalism need destroying
@politics
To assert that legal and de facto responsibility should match is to acknowledge the inviolable sanctity of individual effort and its resultant rewards. This principle, indeed, forms the bedrock of property rights, recognising that a person's labour and its fruits are inherently theirs to claim. The notion that employment, by its nature, contravenes this principle is a profound misapprehension of the dynamics of a free-market system.
Employment is a voluntary transaction between individuals—an agreement where one chooses to trade their labour for compensation. This exchange is not a violation of rights but a manifestation of them. The freedom to contract, to negotiate terms, and to mutually benefit from each other's strengths is the essence of a capitalist society.
To suggest that labour isn't transferable is to deny the autonomy of individuals to dispose of their effort as they see fit. It is to ignore the fact that in a true capitalist society, the individual retains full control over their labour, choosing when, where, and for whom to work based on their own rational self-interest.
The foundations of capitalism do not need destroying; they need understanding and appreciation. They are built upon the recognition of individual rights, the freedom to engage in mutually beneficial exchanges, and the respect for personal property. It is through these principles that human potential is unleashed, innovation thrives, and societies flourish. To dismantle these foundations is to undermine the very source of progress and prosperity.
Employment is a voluntary transaction, but there has to be some corresponding factual transfer to actually fulfill the contract. No such de facto transfer of de facto responsibility occurs to match the assignment of legal responsibility in the employment contract. The contract is not ever fulfilled nor is it, in principle, fulfillable. The only arrangement where legal and de facto responsibility match is a worker coop. Labor is nontransferable at a factual level. You accepted as much
@politics
In the realm of human interaction, the employment contract stands as a testament to mutual consent and the pursuit of rational self-interest. Employment is not a mere exchange of labour for compensation; it is an embodiment of individual choice and the recognition of one’s value.
The assertion that no factual transfer of responsibility exists within traditional employment is fundamentally flawed. When an individual agrees to an employment contract, they are consciously choosing to trade their skills and effort for a commensurate reward. This is a voluntary transaction where both parties benefit: the employer receives the value of the employee's labour, and the employee is compensated accordingly. To claim that this transaction is unfulfillable is to deny the efficacy of human action and the capacity for individuals to uphold their agreements.
I agree that employment is voluntary in the legal sense. Voluntary transaction occur if both parties perceive that they will benefit from the arrangement. The problem is that responsibility can't be transferred.
You know that there is no de facto transfer of de facto responsibility happening in the employment contract. If you thought that a transfer of de facto responsibility occurs in employment, you would think that the employer is solely legally responsible for crimes committed
@politics