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this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2023
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At the same time you can turn that around and say that there are thousands of regular people (that didn't have any power over what their country was doing and didn't participate in it) who would be alive today and that aren't because of two bombs... So it's not that strong of an argument when you think about it...
Yes, because the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the ones deciding what the emperor was doing.
They were ready to surrender, the US were fucking them around
Because the fucking Imperial government was trash. You think I'm defending Japan? Fuck no. But it's a historical fact that the ONLY thing stopping them from surrendering at that point was their worry that surrendering would mean the US forcing them to remove the emperor. What they didn't know, and what the US refused to tell them, was that they didn't give two shits about the emperor. In fact, their demand for Japan's surrender included a statement that the Emperor would retain his place. That little note was only removed when the nuclear tests came back to the President, letting him know that the bombs would work.
You're saying with the point of view of someone in 2023. The Army would have shot people fighting against their government and that would have been the end of it. Japan (especially at the time) is also culturally very different from Western countries.
I never said it's not dramatic, I said that your argument that "people are alive today because X" doesn't hold much water because others died so they're alive. Go tell the family of those who died that their brother/sister/parent had to die to save people in another country.
Tell me, what two days during WW2 did the Germans lose over 100k civilians uninvolved in the war in a couple of seconds? 🤔
The situations aren't that comparable if we're being honest with ourselves.
So you take responsibility for all decisions taken by your government then?
I'll just ignore the ridiculous bit after that.
That's part of the social contract, man. It doesn't mean that every time your government kills someone, you're guilty of murder, but it does mean that we all bear some culpability for the actions of governments we live under, barring an actual attempt to break allegiance with that government.
So would you tell the people who were in the Japanese anti war movement that they should have done more or is there a point where you accept that sometimes the system is just too big for citizens to stop it?
It's easy to act like a hero behind a keyboard, when confronted to the prospect of having to choose between our life and the life of a stranger in another country, the vast, vast majority will sacrifice the stranger and if I had to bet on it I would bet you would do the same because the odds would be in my favor. Heck, it's a choice we make every day by purchasing crap made in third world country instead of spending more on stuff made locally, including whatever device you're typing on.
And that necessitates that I take some responsibility for those choices, including the ire of those wronged by the actions of my society. And the greater the wrong, the greater the retribution one must expect.
"An eye for an eye"
Bull fucking shit
By that logic, how do you want to go about choosing the Americans that need to be killed to compensate the death of the citizens of Irak and Afghanistan? 🤔
I always find it fascinating that people even ignore the simple fact that American soldiers were more than capable of war crimes themselves.
Disregarding their conquered nations, disregarding the millions of soldiers that would die, far, far more civilians would have died in the invasion under equally horrible conditions.
Starvation, gangrape, summary execution, dying trapped in rubble from an artillery strike, deaths due to extreme shortages of all kinds, all these horrors and more awaited the Japanese citizenry if the Allies invaded. It is just incontrovertible fact that the bombs lessened human suffering by an incomprehensible degree.
Tbf, they were ready to surrender after the first bomb but it wasn't unconditional. They wanted protection for their emperor. The US wanted to drop the second bomb to make Russia think we had more. This is an open secret. The second bombing has nothing to do with stopping Japan.
And pretending like everyone has the power to end a war is horrifyingly childish. It's actually scary how naive and simple your viewpoint is when taken into context the monstrosity you're defending.
I'm not condoning the Japanese. I'm just saying there was likely not a need to drop a second nuclear bomb in this world. You seem insistent that not condoning countless deaths of Japanese people seems to be apologizing for them. You aren't actually arguing for necessity of the actions in your posts but the necessity of believing in punishment of them. Just as I don't think random murders of US Americans would be a justified if it stopped the wars in Afghanistan which is exactly what your logic dictates would make it ok. You basically justified terrorism and events like 9/11 dumbass.