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submitted 1 year ago by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/opensource@lemmy.ml
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[-] il3fm9@sh.itjust.works -2 points 1 year ago

Section 6 of the GPLv2 states the following:

Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this License.

The way I interpret this, nothing about your ability to "copy, distribute or modify" the code would be violated. "The Program" wouldn't refer to the live, changing copy; only the copy that you received at that point in time which you are still able to redistribute. I point specifically to the wording of "Each time you redistribute the Program" - since newer versions of the Program are no longer being distributed to you, the terms no longer apply for these newer copies. Neither this section nor any other section forbids you from denying access to binaries.

No, I am no “free” to do whatever I want. I want to distribute that source is strictly allowed under the GPL, but then RH penalizes me for exercising that right by terminating that account. That’s a restriction. How is being penalized for doing what I’m allowed to do not a restriction?

They only said "free to do whatever you want with the source code provided for the binaries they distributed to you", which is true? You wouldn't be receiving any further binaries that would require releasing code to you, and you'd still be able to copy/distribute/modify the code that you got up until that point.

How about yet another angle for you. For example, I download and distribute the source RPM for gcc for the version running on my box. RH terminates my account. Now I want to download and distribute the source RPM for the kernel running on my box. How do I do that with a terminated account?

As mentioned above, you'd be perfectly able to redistribute the code associated with the binaries already provided to you. Once your account is terminated, you'd no longer have access to the binaries that you could request the code for.

Please correct me if I'm wrong; IANAL.

[-] EmbeddedEntropy@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

They only said “free to do whatever you want with the source code provided for the binaries they distributed to you”, which is true? You wouldn’t be receiving any further binaries that would require releasing code to you, and you’d still be able to copy/distribute/modify the code that you got up until that point.

I would still assert that having contractual penalties for a behavior granted elsewhere is no longer free, hence a "restriction". But this is where I'd love to hear a lawyer's position. "Common sense" and "legal sense" can often be in conflict.

I'm aware I'd be restricted from future binary updates. But my point goes to what the legal definition of what a "restriction" is in this context. The language in this sentence to me is plain, "You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients’ exercise of the rights granted herein." RH is attempting to limit my behavior by imposing contractual penalties for exercising rights granted under the GPL. Those penalties being imposed are not just restricting access to future binary updates, but forfeiting all current granted privileges and monies already paid under contract, and the termination of that contract. I would consider that a "restriction", but IANAL either.

I would say RH's behavior goes to this GPL FAQ. I would assert that RH's new contract is certainly a "more restrictive basis", but I'd love to hear from an IP/contract lawyer that is familiar with the GPL on this issue.

I would think what RH wants to do with this change would be perfectly fine if they just chose just to let the existing contract with the customer run out without renewal, and not make any changes of terms until expiration, but terminating their contract and the terms granted therein is a restriction, and I suspect will run them afoul in court.

Again, I'd love to hear from a IP/contract lawyer. I've interacted with numerous ones over the years on our RHEL support contract renewals and on a patent litigation case as my company's lead engineer (sucking up two years of my career), and my impression is just that.

As mentioned above, you’d be perfectly able to redistribute the code associated with the binaries already provided to you. Once your account is terminated, you’d no longer have access to the binaries that you could request the code for.

I'm not sure you said here what you mean to? I certainly still have access to the binaries I already downloaded. After all, they're still running on my box! And also under the RHEL contract (old or new), I'm still able to run those binaries indefinitely. But that means I'm also still entitled to the source from RH for those installed binaries since they were originally distributed and installed by RH under the terms of the GPL.

Of course to "work around this", RH could put all sorts of hoops in the way of requesting them via some alternative, manual method and then charging a fee for them. A long time ago, I used to work for a company that charged $250 for a copy of our GPL'd code for each product, and after 6 weeks to fulfill the request, would U.S. mail it to the customer on a QIC tape. I'm curious to see how RH fulfills this aspect of the GPL post-termination.

BTW, this change in the RHEL contract is nothing new. A different company had worked for used to have an 8-figure RHEL support contract, and I was their point of contact with our TAM. Thirteen years ago, we were considering a ELS (Extended Lifecycle Support) contract for RHEL which had a version of this new language in it way back then, so I ended up discussing this issue at length with our TAM. He said we'd only get answers to my questions of how the language wasn't a direct violation of section 6 from RH Legal if and only if we'd sign the contract.

But out of all this, my biggest concern of all this by far is the can of worms RH is opening. What's going to happen when other even less scrupulous companies attempt to run with this possible GPL loophole RH is trying to bust open?

[-] stsquad@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

The GPL only cares about ensuring the four freedoms are maintained for binaries and their related sources. It has nothing to say about other services you may or may not be asked to pay for. Indeed as you say the GPL allows for reasonable costs to supply source code. We have gotten used to this being ubiquitous and "free as in beer" but it's not really. All this distribution costs someone somewhere money to do.

The four freedoms may say you can run the program for any purpose without restriction but there are definitely other laws that would have a say if you did certain things with those programs.

[-] chebra@mstdn.io 2 points 1 year ago

@stsquad @EmbeddedEntropy

> We have gotten used to this being ubiquitous and “free as in beer” but it’s not really.

Any big company which cannot bear the costs of publishing code to github can just calculate how much it would have costed them, then send the code to me and I'll upload it to github for them and only ask for half of the price. Seriously, I'll halve your "cost". Because it is actually free and they are just bullshitting.

[-] il3fm9@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Is this not the same kind of argument companies make against piracy? I think it's not so much a pricing problem than it is a service problem. In the same way that people rely on Steam rather than pirating every single game on the market, it's the services that are offered rather than the price that has to be paid.

Say you go ahead and do this - what guarantees will you make with that price? Guarantees like priority support and timely package updates cost money, which doesn't sound viable unless the big company is setting absurdly high prices, in which case, that just sounds like competition.

[-] stsquad@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

I'd rather they didn't have to waste their valuable engineer time supporting the small niche case of some making certain magic binaries a little easier to hack on. Their time can be much better spent working on the upstream project wherever it might be hosted. As long as the license is respected Red Hat can distribute as they want. Indeed you could argue that CentOS stream provides the "preferred form" of code access required for building Red Hat like distros.

This is a storm in a teacup when we have bigger oceans to boil.

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this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2023
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