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this post was submitted on 24 Aug 2024
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What people fail to understand about this situation is that the entire situation leaves everybody involved with what are essentially binary choices where everybody loses no matter which one you pick anyway.
Fact: Hamas launched an unprovoked attack on Israel, killing over 1000 people and holding over 200 hostage, some of which are still in captivity to this day.
Fact: Israel had every right to respond militarily and do everything in their power to rescue the hostages.
Fact: Israel's response has gone well above and beyond what is proportional and necessary, and instead has focused on bombings of civilian infrastructure with little knowledge of or regard for the hostages they're stupposed to be trying to rescue, instead focusing on a "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out." approach that quickly spiraled into an all out genocide that even the israelis themselves barely bother trying to hide any more.
For simplicity's sake, and because Harris is now the nominee and Biden has dropped out, any time I refer to "Harris", assume I'm talking about the Biden/Harris administration in general.
Harris has two options here. Support Israel, or support the people of Gaza. Whichever one she chooses, she's going to piss the other side off. So far, the administration has tried their best to hide behind the existing political alliance between the US and Israel while sidestepping questions about the war in Gaza. This has led to where we are now, with calling Biden "Genocide Joe", mass protests on college campuses, and a significant amount of political fallout at home. But what would have happened if Harris were to pivot and support the Palestinians instead?
There are just shy of 175,000 people of Palestinian descent living in the US. There's 7.5 million Jews. The fact remains, whatever your personal opinion of the conflict is, there are many, many, many more people in this country who support Israel, and they are significantly more politically active, politically entrenched, and well funded. That's just reality. Any attempt at pivoting would be portrayed by the Jewish population as a betrayal of Jews and an abandonment of Israel.
The college protests we've already been seeing would look like weekend picnics compared to what would happen if we stopped supporting Israel. AIPAC just got finished spending silly amounts of money to have 3/4 of "the squad" primaried for supporting Gaza. I'm not saying they'd go all Trumpy, but they absolutely would be pouring tens of millions into getting their population to vote for a no-hoper like Jill Stein which would have the side effect of Trump getting back into office through the back door.
This is Harris' option now. Stick her fingers in her ears and scream LALALALALALALA in public over the Gaza conflict as it stands now while quietly working behind the scenes to help find a path to a ceasefire, or she could pivot on the issue and continue supporting the people of Gaza during her concession speech in November once support from the Jewish population evaporates overnight. Or having to sit and watch as President Trump essentially nuke-and-paves the entire place and turns it into the Trump Gaza Casino.
This is what people don't get. There is no good option here. Full Stop. Whichever side she chooses, she's going to piss the other side off. And any attempt at just taking a neutral stance would just end up pissing both sides off. Attempting to have "Genocide Joe" cancelled would just lead to the return to power of someone campaigning on "I'll Genocide harder!".
I know it sucks, and I know the hostages shouldn't have to wait that long and all that. I get it. But the best (read: least shitty) option is really to wait until after the election. Get Harris into office, then pressure her into supporting whichever side you're on in the conflict under threat of being primaried by a Democrat challenger in 2028. But these kind of "messages" that they're not going to support Harris will only lead to the rise to power of a man who will gladly thank them by offering them a 5% discount on a VIP package at his new middle eastern casino.
I fully support Palestine. What Israel is doing is the textbook definition of a genocide. And I wish I could wake up one morning and hear the Harris administration is pulling all support from Israel and stands with Palestine. But I'm also aware of the reality of the world we live in at both a national and geopolitical level, and can acknowledge that this is the least bad option the administration can take right now, and that the "Genocide Joe" protests and the demands those protesters are making are a clear example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face, and a clear misunderstanding of what would happen if they actually got what they're advocating for.
I promise you, with every fiber of my being and every breath in my lungs, if you are unwilling to support Harris or are planning to just stay home in protest in November, please reconsider. What you are advocating for will lead to the return to power of someone who absolutely will make the entire situation exponentially worse. Pressuring a future Harris administration with a primary challenge in 2028 is going to get you a LOT further in the long run vs. advocating for something that can only lead to the return of Trump. It is the textbook definition of a pyrrhic victory: You will lose far more than you will gain even if you "win", and that "victory" you'd be celebrating today would be guaranteed to cost you the entire war.
There are people who, for various reasons (some well-meaning, some nefarious), put the plight of Palestinians above all other concerns, and decry anyone who doesn't do the same. And they think the solution is to hold the rest of the left hostage by letting Trump win if they don't get their way (though to be fair, I think most of them live in solid blue states where they can do what they want without actually hurting the election, and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't do so).
But people will make choices based on their own needs. How many queer folks are going to choose to allow Trump to win for the sake of Palestinians? Some, I've no doubt, but enough in swing states to change the outcome? Seems doubtful.
Israel is the most complicated thing in geopolitics, perhaps ever. It'll never be solved in a way that leaves anyone hands clean. I support the right to protest and solicit money to help civilians in need and get the message out and to lobby politicians. I think anyone in a swing state who lets this dictate their vote is shooting themselves in the foot for no possible gain. I guess it's their vote, but it's just as frustrating watching them as watching poor Republicans vote against their own interests every election.
I mildly disagree with this only in the sense that there is a time and place for everything. I completely agree that they should make their voices heard if the administration is doing things they don't agree with. But for those who want to ensure that their protests don't do more harm than good, wait until after the election. Heck, start putting the pressure on the day after she's elected, while she's still making front page news on the daily. Make sure Harris understands "Hey, we got you here, and now this is what we expect of you, or we're going to support a primary challenger for you in 2028, and we're going to make your life difficult the entire time in between."
And I agree with your point about dems in solid blue states protesting without really hurting Harris' chances. It's when they're encouraging those in swing states that actually do matter that it starts getting problematic. Sitting home in protest is one thing if you're in CA, MA, or NY. But doing so in Pennsylvania or Georgia is essentially a vote for Trump.
What pressure is even possible after the election? There is only one legal way to put pressure on a politician, and that is with your vote. If you vote for them despite everything, simply because they're the lesser evil, how do you expect to put pressure on them after? They'll do what they always do, which is whatever the owner class tells them to do, up until a few months before the next election. Then it's not about what they have or have not done in the past four years, it's about defeating the Other Guy. Again.
For the record, I agree with you. There's no good choice here. And I'll be voting for Harris come November, though I don't see it as a vote for Harris particularly, just a vote for the Democratic Party, to reward them for actually listening to ~~the people~~ their primary donors and getting Biden to step down.
The community has four years to put pressure on Harris right from day one.
AIPAC, for example, could issue a statement that they are looking forward to supporting "any candidate we feel most meets the needs of the Jewish Community in 2028". Especially after seeing them almost singlehandedly dismantle the squad, their threat of backing another candidate in the Democrat primaries becomes very, very real. And they have four years to hang that around her neck.
And then when 2026 comes along, they can reinforce it by again putting their money into primarying any candidates in the mid-term races not meeting their goals. Harris is no stupid woman. She'd get the message. Especially if the size of the Jewish voting population would be enough to cost her the primaries, or re-election in the general two years later.
(Now, for the record, I am no fan of this kind of bullshit money being allowed in politics at all. But I'm also aware of the reality of the world we live in, and in that reality, AIPAC absolutely can and will do this if given the opportunity. I do not agree with this, but am merely showing an example of how Harris can be put under very real pressure right from day one, from a lobbying group who very well could cost her her political future in a way that doesn't also hand the White House right back to Trump.)
You can't try and pressure the Democrats after the election, don't you know that defeating the Republicans in 2028 is more important? /s
Very well written.
I think what has a lot of people angry isn't just the genocide though. It's how the US can't seem to get a handle on Israel. They exist and continue to exist because of the US. Yet they act like the spoiled child who knows they'll never get in trouble no matter what they do. People want to see their leader actually get a handle on things there.
That's because Netanyahu has a handle on the US.
Through AIPAC, yes. It just goes to show how susceptible to lobbying the US. This embarrasses them on the world stage in turn. As they're seen as not being able to keep their attack dog in check.
They seem to have brought us to heel pretty effectively.
not sure you fully understand the whole history and entirety of this situation
This is the state of lemmy’s political threads.
A long nuanced answer explaining historical context and the complexity of the situation.
While you and other commenter give petulant 1 sentence responses like “hur dur they don’t know shit about fuck”. Im surprised you didn’t call him blue maga.
Not once have I ever heard from any account spouting nonsense like that who they intend to vote for especially at any other level of gov who would accomplish their goals and how.not once do I hear about a way forward from this weird ass shill accounts constantly shitting on the left instead of actually describing the concrete steps to achieve your goals that others could take. You know beyond shitting on liberals.
Maybe it’s a sign of moderation that these threads are nothing but accounts like yours desperately shutting down conversation and the possibility of good political discussion. It’s quite impressive how frankly you guys keep shutting on discourse every where to the point of any serious discussion of policy is drowned out by accounts like yours and comments like this.
I fully expect to get 4-5 responses calling me made up names like “blue maga” instead of presenting their take, specific candidates, pieces of legislation etc. because that’s where lemmy is at this point.
They think everything started on October 7, 2023...
They sure typed a lot of words to show that they don't know shit about fuck