i can't even guess as to why they went quiet. not one guess at all. we will never know.
edit: well they're not quiet now once they get called out
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Real Talk, I'm getting real tired of everyone from the vaguely right of center to the farthest reaches of the left getting involved in this shit slinging blame game.
I legit don't care anymore who you voted for (edit: so long as it wasn't Trump I mean. But even then, time to start your redemption arc if you did). We are past the election and now all share the same immediate issues.
Folks who abstained from voting (or voted 3rd party) because you couldn't stomach the lesser of two evils, good news, that choice is gone. You can stop parroting the idea that anyone who voted Blue did so "in support of genocide". It should be clear by now those who voted Blue really were just doing their best in a bad situation, they are not your enemies.
Folks who voted Blue because you believe supporting the lesser evil is in service of the greater good. Good news, that burden is also gone. You can stop parroting the idea that someone who can't stomach voting for people who would play politics with genocide is really just a tankie or a bot. Not every one is willing to play game theory with people's lives, that doesn't mean they are your enemies.
Anyone who truly wants to push for solidarity and human rights for all is an ally of mine. And I propose we bury the hatchet, preferably in the objectives of fascists, before its too late.
They're easy targets. Blame the abstainers and third party voters and you don't have to confront the legitimate failures of your party and campaign.
That's very true, and we see it election cycle after election cycle. But for many who voted Blue, the Dem's are not "their party". They were playing the best hand they were dealt in a terrible situation. And while I get feeling sick to your stomach over playing that hand when the chips are peoples lives, I also get the cold calculus some people are willing to make for the greater good.
Frankly, Abstainers and Lesser Of Two Evil Voters have been, imho, radicalized against each other due to the contentious nature of the election. I don't believe the camps were so separate a year ago.
If we all want to keep dying on this hill, well we certainly can and will. But I've talked to folks on both sides, and they largely want the same outcomes. Even if we all didn't agree on the solution.
The election proved that divided we are not a larger group than the fascist collation in this country. But I'm willing to be combined we are.
And we don't have to argue over the election anymore, so unless we want to find another hill to die on, I once again propose we agree with pushing towards are shared goals.
These hills are all they're going to let us have. We'll keep eating our own in the same valley every four years.
My greatest fear is that you are right.
Why not both?
Because it's not a useful strategy. Convince them they're wrong and they'll shame themselves.
I think it is important to point out the failings of others. Otherwise they may not connect the dots and learn from their mistakes.
Sometimes a mistake is innocent, say you forgot to zip up your fly. It’s important to know you forgot to do so as it could be very socially embarrassing.
Sometimes one could accidentally cut someone off in traffic because they didn’t see them. A good honk notifies them of their mistake and will hopefully drive home the fact that they probably need to pay better attention to traffic.
Pointing out that abstaining and or choosing not to vote enabled the election of the greater of two evils is equally important.
Rock on OP. Never let them forget!
Then point at the FAILED DEMOCRAT PARTY instead of voters. When biden announced he was running for re-election their own internal polling showed he’d lose. They don’t fucking care, it’s all theatre to them. Their corporate owners are happy and the donations continue to flow in from foolish rubes like you who will gladly vote blue no matter who right off a fucking cliff.
Kamala Harris spent a billion dollars and still fucking lost. But yeah go blame voters that will ensure the same thing happens in 2028 should we be so lucky to pretend to play democracy again. And it is pretend. Because if you don’t vote correctly you’re the worst person to ever exist.
If that delusion makes feel better about enabling a facist, then you probably aren’t ready to come to terms with your failure.
Sooner or later, one way or another, it will come for you.
Continue losing elections.
If Dems continue loosing elections they will definitely come for you.
Maybe the dems who claim to be my ally should consider that when holding unpopular positions that don’t get them elected. They don’t care.
Cool, I can’t wait to see what this Republican President does for whatever position it is you care about.
I hope Trump goes HARD!
I’ve been repeating this thought exercise because people seem to have a hard time delineating when blame goes the other way.
Bob is standing next to a bomb, and a fuse is sparking down. Jill, on the other side of a fence and reliant on Bob, lifts a huge very expensive sign for Bob to stamp out the fuse. Bob does not stamp out the fuse, bomb goes off.
Who is at fault; Bob for not stamping out the fuse, or Jill for not getting a high-amp bullhorn to inform Bob he should stamp the fuse?
Feel free to vary the analogy, but the question would extend to: When does it become Bob’s fault that he didn’t take action?
It remains the democrats fault for:
• gaslighting the public about inflation
• gaslighting the public about not one but two new wars including a genocide!
• refusing to run a small D democratic primary that they didn’t rig since checks notes 2004 (they tried to rig 2008 for Hillary but failed because Obama was so charismatic they couldn’t stop him)
• refusing to run a primary at all in 2024, despite biden promising when elected in 2020 to be a one term president, and his own polling showed he’d lose in 2024
• last minute Hail Mary of replacing biden with Harris despite not a single vote being cast for her
• no platform other than “we’re not trump! Elect an anti-democratic party to save democracy! Trumps the next hitler!!!!”
• didn’t bother campaigning in swing states just like Hillary in 2016
Gee I wonder why they lost the election. Couldn’t be that they continuously gaslight the public. Couldn’t be that they didn’t hold a primary (sorry but RFK Jr vanity run is not a primary). No, no. Voters just voted wrong!
But don’t worry! We have to save dEmOcRaCy! Let’s just roll over and hand the power over to trump because he won fair and square and optics and politeness are more important than saving the country! You see, the democrat party doesn’t actually give a shit, if they were serious, they would have their own January 6th. They’re not serious. They’re gonna fundraise off of it. Just like roe v Wade!
Yeah? Why do you need a platform beyond this?
It was a competent former prosecutor vs a serially lying violent felon.
'But Trump' got you Trump twice. At this point you're arguing against the concrete proof that your view WON'T WORK to justify blaming people that tried to save you from yourself.
You, in this case, is the DNC and everyone else blaming voters for the failure of the DNC.
They shouldn't have even include the democracy angle in their campaign. You cannot run on "Trump is a threat to democracy," when you own administration has completely failed to put the man behind bars.
Imagine the insanity if Trump, in 2020, had ran on a campaign of taxes being too low, after he had just slashed them. That is the level of idiocy the Harris campaign was trying to run on.
You had four years to put the guy behind bars. You don't get to then point to him as a threat to democracy, since you yourself clearly do not consider him to be a threat to democracy.
Actions. Speak. Louder. Than. Words.
Jill set and lit the bomb, and lifts up a big expensive sign saying that defusing bombs is antisemitic and what Putin wants. Bob tries as hard as he can to put out the bomb anyway, but Jill made sure to design it such that Bob can't defuse it. So, once it's clear his efforts are futile, Bob runs as fast as he can away from Jill and the bomb, and the bomb blows up.
When does it become Jill's fault that she did actively take harmful actions?
I am willing to move forward with centrists as coalition partners with the left-- only because neither of us can win alone, but after this election they have to come to the table as coalition partners, NOT leaders.
Progressives need to leave the Democratic party. Voters know that neither progressives or centrists have the numbres to win alone, but Progressives have popular issues to run on, and centrists have nothing but hisorical momentum thats stopped pretty cold at the moment. All the "anyone but trump" people will still be there next election (assuming there is one) and they will vote for leadership that is promising good things. And progressives will win. So I say lets formally split, and if the centrists come along theyd be welcome, and if they'd rather go it alone then they should get used to losing because they have no other future.
For long term political goals, I'm fully on board with you.
For immediate resistance to fascism, we are already all on the same side, or so I hope.
This might actually be the single best comment in this thread.
I'd rather keep up the blame game, ngl. Arguments didn't work on the disingenuous pricks who helped get us here. I don't care if they personally made a difference or not, I care that they were utterly unreasonable, and the change in circumstances won't change that.
Speaking to anyone who could've voted for Kamala but didn't: I don't care about solidarity anymore; you didn't have solidarity with us when we needed you. Y'all are fucking stupid and I don't want to deal with that. I realize that's not the moral choice, but RN for the first time in over a decade I don't care about that. I'm angry. Maybe in a few more days or weeks or months that will change, maybe not. Right now I'm focusing on making sure all my remaining friends are able to get somewhere safe if the need arises and keep hope kindled in their hearts. Maybe that means other people who need my help more will suffer, die, or fall victim to their own despair, but I just don't have the wherewithal to make that my priority.
Never did. Solidarity means you aren't willing to sacrifice marginalized groups to get ahead or save your own skin. If you accept sacrificing Palestinians, you'd accept sacrificing any other group by the exact same "lesser-evilist" logic. What value does that kind of "solidarity" have?
To be fair, for many the choice to save or sacrifice Palestine never felt like it was on the table. For those people, the choice was between making a deal with the devil to save as many marginalized groups as possible, or sacrificing said marginalized groups to keep their "hands clean".
I believe both sides of this argument felt like they were pushing for solidarity the best way they knew how. And due to the emotionally charged nature of this choice, we wound up losing all solidarity ironically.
If you truly believe in solidarity, then try to see the human on the other side of the screen and be the first to reach out and mend the cracks.
Here's the thing. I'm trans. On our own, we represent a tiny sliver of the voting public, not worth considering from a strategic standpoint. But there are plenty of other groups of people in the same boat. Together, we are worth considering - but only together. "What force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one?" If we try to build a coalition in which we abandon any group that the democratic politicians deem too much of a liability to be worth protecting, that is no coalition at all, and I well understand that after Palestinians, I will be next. The very same logic that these people were willing to deploy against them can and will be deployed to justify abandoning me and mine.
What advantage do I gain from joining together in a "coalition" in "solidarity" with these fair-weather friends who will drop us at the first sign of trouble? Honestly, they are more of a liability than an asset, because if I'm buddying up with them, it damages my credibility among potentially more reliable people who have good reason not to trust them. I would rather do it the right way and build trust even if it means building from the ground up.
I appreciate what you're trying to do, but these disagreements are meaningful and important. This election may be over, but the question remains of what the appropriate strategy is going forward, whether to build a coalition that will treat an offense against one as an offense against all, and ensure that anyone who comes for any part of it is unelectable, or whether to "vote blue no matter who" as we are picked off one-by-one, in exchange for temporary, short term security for some.
I get your points and they are well taken. Just be careful not to swing at ghosts so hard that you hit those who would have made great allies.
Not every one who voted Blue is a "fair-weather friend". Frankly, I bet you would be surprised with how many would be willing to push for something better if given the opportunity.
And sometimes, people just need to be given the chance. The disagreements are meaningful, but the shit slinging is not. And I'm afraid we have traded in meaningful discussion for pure shit slinging.
Sounds like you have your hands full dealing with getting you and yours to safety. Good luck, I wish you all the best in that endeavor!
I can't blame you for being angry, but just try not to let that anger turn you into the thing you are angry at. Someone who stands idly by when someone needs help you could provide.
> is subjected to any criticism what so ever
> instantly falls into elaborate fantasy
> shares fantasy with the public, for some reason
> believes own fantasy, thinks others are insane
> publicly and loudly tells people "I'm ignoring you"
Seems about right.
Time is linear. The Democratic party backed a genocide BEFORE the election.
Lotta usage of the word solidarity when you were reliant on a people that the Democratic candidate campaigned on continuing the genocide of.
Kinda seems like your definition of solidarity is 'support me no matter what.'
>Lemmy.ml
> Projecting
No surprises.
Look at that, a jackass fine with genocide falling back to ad hominem, because their screed of "I'm done with solidarity" when they had none in the first place gets pointed out for the bullshit it was.
I'll be sure to tell my trans friends it's okay that they're getting thrown under the bus next because Leate_Wonceslace is done with solidarity. The Dems are already explicitly blaming them for the loss.
> lemmy.ml
> gets called out for projecting
> more projection
No surprises.
Blocked.
On this platform specifically we've had months of smug people claiming to make the moral choice of directly or indirectly supporting the clearly worse choice. It's far too early to just let that slide.
If we in 100 years still sometimes talk about the early days of the fediverse where a bunch of morons fell for astroturfing, that's kind of a good outcome.
If they're real people they should feel bad.
For the not so real people, we should figure out how a distibuted system can deal with a concerted astroturfing operation.
On this platform, we have also had genuine people struggle with supporting a system and party that directly cause harm, even if it would cause less harm then the alternative. And many of them went from struggling with finding the right choice, to full on radicalization towards abstaining because of the smug posting of people on this platform who acted as if it was stupid or evil for them to struggle with their moral compass.
I get that everyone feels very strongly about their positions in this, and that these feelings are directly tied to our personal beliefs.
But the reality is, those who abstained and those who voted Blue share many fundamental beliefs. And we can either let this election be the hill we all collectively die on, or we can let bygones be bygones and stand united to help those we still can.
And here is the kicker, it may feel good to say those who came to a different conclusion than you should "feel bad", but if you do, you will be guilty of the same sin you so strongly accuse them of.
Two weeks is pretty fast to go "let bygones be bygones" for people making such an obviously bad choice. We're dealing with extremely dense people here who had months to figure this out and still made the obviously wrong choice. It's gonna take some repetition for it to register.
I say we keep talking about it at least until after there is another democratic election in the US, or talking about it becomes illegal in open forums in the US.
Just in time to divide us again and let the situation get worse. Planning on making the same bad choice you are accusing others of huh?
Yeah, let's blame the people actually supporting Harris for her loss. That's a great idea. Let's all just keep falling for russian psyops or stay quiet to not "divide" us again
Great plan
Let's blame the people who forced her on us after voters totally rejected her in the 2020 primary. Some of us pushed for Biden to drop out far sooner and got shouted down. Some of us called for an open convention after he dropped out and got shouted down. Some of sounded the alarm about the Harris campaign running a Republican light strategy and got shouted down. How much failure does it take for establishment fools to shut the fuck up?
No, that's also a pretty terrible plan. Though since I never suggested we do that, nor did I blame those who supported Harris, I have to wonder who you are talking to?
Acting pretty mad for getting exactly what you wanted. But thank God virtue signaling about Gaza will survive past the actual existence of Gaza
Honestly I’m drinking liberal tears up. Where were you for the past four years “pushing biden to the left”? Out to brunch! Don’t you know the economy has never been better?!