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There was that John Stewart interview with Sarah Smarsh. That was a pain to watch, but the gist was that "we didn't pander to the American rural working class identity".

I felt weird about this framing of working class, which seems to mean the low-brow identity. "Oh sorry there, we were mistaken in thinking that NPR is par to Fox News". And now, what exactly Democrats? Are you going to cater to anti-intellectuals to get votes? You know like fascists do? So they will try to take a page out of Trump's book, but they are doomed because they can't do it as well as fascists do. There is a chasm between that (whatever is called...) NPR discourse and the pre-industrial dogmas and prejudice. That's why everybody says that even logical arguments do not work the same way with them, as we have seen time and again. They just were never modern, if you get my meaning.

I also read these politico articles. They go into many areas, but I want to focus on the identity thing, since this is the second hint in my feed about it. On the one hand they say "you know what, how we missed that, rural bigots are also an identity", on the other hand they say "we might have focused too much on identity". So which one it is m'fers?

The idea that the working class rural America is a forgotten identity is really weird to me. I was apalled by the fact (cited in one of the two articles) Harris refers to all the different sets of oppressed people as "the groups". The "groups" are consequential because simply they are not the dominant group. All this is gaslighting because the Democrats now say, yes the cisgender straight Caucasian uneducated transphobic male is also an identity, and we should cater to him too. Which is too similar to MRA incel shit to take seriously.

Then, I don't even see black, brown, woman, trans, gay, intersex, as identities, rather than inherent features of people. The meanings they have are due to societal groupings alone. And you bet they have been political in the past and they are as hell political now. Anti-identitarian leftists, leftists who split "identity" from "class consciousness" by default seem weird to me in that effect, because for example slavery was a mode of exploitative production, ownership and enslavement of women was integral in pre-industrial economic systems. This "laborist" sterilization of the working class definition reduces a snapshot of British 19th century capitalism to the canon of analysis for every historical period and every type of social stratification? How do you even approach other type of societies entirely, like tribal societies? Like marxist anthropologists tried to and ended up with all kinds of upgrades to marxist theory, but some people do not want to hear about it because of purity.

This leads to paradox, when on one hand you say "wage labor is like modern slavery" but then you ditch all analyses that explore the long aftermath of actual slavery in society, or the deep roots that oppresion of women has in society including labor relations. As if the fact that modern American society has nerfed the feminist, civil rights, and gay liberation movements by providing an inclusivity capitalist narrative, is itself the true essence and historical origin of these groups historical movements and demands. Some go as far as rejecting the concept of human rights on supposedly marxist and/or antiimperialist premises.

This way you just erase decades of movements, activist, and scholarship, because race and gender has been branded to you as a neoliberal smokescreen, but I can't take serious an analysis like that.

To get back to the original topic, Democrats are doomed if they want to start catering to the low-brow rural population. Especially coining this demographic as yet another identity is preposterous and ridiculous. This is rock bottom for representative democracy of the late stage "politician marketing" flavor. And from a strategic perspective, the fascists have long beaten them to catering to this demographic, and such obvious, after the fact, flattery will only worsen the results, even if they decide to be machiavelian about it.

So much for the Democrats, RIP, start organizing at the local level, and don't forget that working class means strictly you are exploited for surplus value, and you can't understand this without intersectionality. Rather than "identity politics", race and gender are historical components of worker exploitation, and sticking to a naive definition of the working class does little more than undoing the collective history of these movements.

Last but not least, it seems that blaming a specific identity is trending, and that would be trans people. We get several Democrat lawmakers speaking out the same ignorant shit as conservative conspiracy nutjobs. I won't go in depth here, but this is just scapegoating. Not to mention, all those who complain about identity politics they either think trans acceptance is "too much", or upon inquiry they also oppose gay marriage and are just centrist bigots. This new wave of Democrat anti-trans scapegoating only helps normalize Republican misinformation and bring it to the mainstream.

The two lines of news show that Democrats want to cater to the the straight white man and throw other groups under the bus, because this is just political marketing. They need the people to get the votes and serve their own fucking lobbies. Have no doubt about it. If they lose elections over Black Lives Matter and trans rights, they will move the goal posts more and more to the right, until they are indistinguishable from fascists. I was not with the camp against Harris vote on the election, but gauging Democrats behavior after their loss, I eventually think that people were right to shit on them, even at the cost of a fascist dictatorship in the US.

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[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Well, the post election analysis is clear. Harris lost because the Democrats couldn't mobilize voters that wouldn't vote for Trump either.

So there is clearly a large number of potential voters that are not so stupid as to vote for Trump but felt the Democrats wouldn't make their lives better in any way either, and just voting for the lesser evil seems to have been not enough motivation for them.

Many of these people did vote for Biden in 2020 however (around 10 million more), so the question is what was different back then? Surely Biden was not the better candidate (assuming mysogynists and racist voted for Trump anyways).

To some extent I suspect it was the misshanding of the initial Covid19 response by the first Trump administration that got some people to vote for Biden, but I suspect the bigger reason was that Biden did signal to take the Black Lives Matter protests serious, while Harris did the opposite and tried to appeal to moderate white conservatives (likely falsely assuming her racial identity would be sufficient to mobilize the non-white voters anyways).

Edit: before someone comes and accuses me of blaming non-white people for the election loss: no, I think these people correctly assume the government will be hostile to them regardless of who of the two large parties wins and are too busy trying to get along with their lives to bother voting.

[-] whydudothatdrcrane@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 month ago

clearly a large number of potential voters that are not so stupid as to vote for Trump but felt the Democrats wouldn’t make their lives better in any way either

This is a great point, and it is very much corroborated by the rest of your response. In particular

what was different back then?

Biden did signal to take the Black Lives Matter protests serious

Exactly, if they want to have the high moral ground they should do sth of it. It is not like Black Lives Matter and Trans Rights protest because they have nothing more interesting to do. They protest to bring social change and to be heard.

Centrists historically have won over minorities by paying lip service to them, and/or painting a narrative of inclusive capitalism. Now they were confident enough that the minorities' vote was granted, and they did not meet that low bar even.

Biden also lift the trans military ban, much to the ire of the conservatives. What did Harris do? Shut up about trans issues and cater to conservatives because trans bad/too edgy.

appeal to moderate white conservatives (likely falsely assuming her racial identity would be sufficient to mobilize the non-white voters anyways)

Yes, the appeal to the white moderate conservative was tried in this election and failed miserably. Yet they strive for more of it. Having thought that the minorities will vote for them no matter what because what'd they gonna do, vote for fucking Trump? Guess what, some minority individuals did exactly that.

Democrats are no shit to be trusted, and they have been preying on far-left and minority vote forever, with the boogeyman of the right-wing opponent. Fuck, if they become the boogeyman themselves and shut up about our issues, then why should we even bother.

We really need to make anarchism relevant again.

[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 4 points 1 month ago

Yeah, but I feel like part of the problem is that leftist groups don't show up to vote if the Presidential candidate isn't who they want.

There are still a lot of down ballot measures that failed to pass which should have been easy wins if a Biden electorate showed up, like banning the use of inmate labor in California and instituting a ranked choice ballot in some states.

Get rid of the Presidential election, and there was still a lot to vote on. But few people seem to care outside of the Presidential election.

[-] whydudothatdrcrane@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

like banning the use of inmate labor in California and instituting a ranked choice ballot in some states

I can't parse your comment in depth, but with regard to the above measures, I think that it is OK for anarchists to show up to strategically upvote such measures, but these can't be the goal. We are not a reliable source of voting potential for centrists; this stance is perpetuated because of the eternal myth of utopic anarchism.

Voting should not be a distraction from maintaining pillars of solidarity in the community, and this especially in times of dictatorship, like when voting is not even on the table.

[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 points 1 month ago

I never said to vote for a centrist President; filling in a third party or none of the above would be acceptable. Get people to vote on the clear-cut issues and let them choose to vote on whatever else.

Voting should not be a distraction from maintaining pillars of solidarity in the community

If a community can't rally together to support a ballot measure they believe in, how are they going to be able organize to the sufficient capacity to protect their communities in other ways?

[-] whydudothatdrcrane@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago

how are they going to

Obviously we are not disagreeing here. Collective decision making structures and tools should be in place in order to do both.

I am just saying one of the two is still a viable option whether elections are an option or not.

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 month ago

The people that didn't vote are not "leftist groups". It might be possible to mobilize them with real leftist politics, but that is largely conjecture right now. And the Black Lives Matters were not leftist protests either, at least not in the regular sense of the term.

[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 points 1 month ago

Based on how you hear some leftists talk about them, it makes them sound like this large group who would only vote if given the option.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

A little post-election rant: Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed

Democrats would rather lose—to a Republican, to a conservative, to a fascist, to Trump—than […] address the material conditions of the American people.

I’m seeing a lot of copium coming from people on the left/progressives, that are like, “you know what guys, we really gotta […] push the Democratic party left.” It’s not going to happen. The Democratic party will not be pushed left. They tried. We tried. It failed. Just go back in recent history, and look at how, at every chance that the Democrats or progressives tried to push the Democratic party left, they were crushed. …

They hate anyone left of center. The Democratic party is a corporate interest, billionaire elite party that only pretends to sometimes pander a little bit to the left when they want to get your votes, and even then they’re not even really trying that hard: they’ve pretty much made clear that they hate you.

[-] eldavi@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago

So much for the Democrats, RIP, start organizing at the local level, and don’t forget that working class means strictly you are exploited for surplus value, and you can’t understand this without intersectionality. Rather than “identity politics”, race and gender are historical components of worker exploitation, and sticking to a naive definition of the working class does little more than undoing the collective history of these movements.

some part of me wonders if the democrats have become as thoroughly propagandized as most americans and are using it as the lens for investigating their election defeat.

[-] whydudothatdrcrane@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

as thoroughly propagandized as most americans

This is probable especially since a good portion of leftists interprets these movements as "identity politics" rather than as historical movements that stem from exploitation and are a genuine part of the radical left.

Some even want to purge their politics from this "reformist neoliberal plague".

This would of course be too close to Elon Musk's "woke mind virus", so it is more or less the same notion. You bet leftists have not received a similar type of propaganda, which is ultimately a dilution of true class consciousness.

[-] eldavi@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

i think that "identity politics" is another attempt to weaken leftist pushes and most of us are americans who are going to have to unlearn the shit that we've been force fed since birth.

this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2024
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