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I'd just like to interject for a moment (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 weeks ago by renzev@lemmy.world to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
34 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Explanation for newbies: The GNU/Linux copypasta is an argument made by Richard Stallman that the operating system should be referred to as "GNU/Linux" or "GNU+Linux" because linux is just the kernel and what makes it useful are the various GNU programs and libraries like coreutils and glibc.

Alpine Linux is a linux distribution that ships without any GNU software (though it can be installed using the package manager).

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[-] confusedpuppy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 31 points 2 weeks ago

I once saw someone in the irc channel jokingly refer to Alpine as Alpine linux pine. Now when I goto the website, all my mind reads is Alpine Linux Pine Linux...

[-] yoshman@lemmy.world 13 points 2 weeks ago

I was going to say you have to start use Alpine with the Pine email client. But IIRC, Pine stopped development, and a new project called Alpine took over.

So, now use Alpine to run Alpine and start calling it Alpine Linux Alpine Linux.

[-] hedgehog@ttrpg.network 13 points 2 weeks ago

I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as Alpine Linux Alpine Linux is in fact Pine’s fork, Alpine / Alpine Linux Pine Linux, or as I’ve taken to calling it, Pine’s Alpine plus Alpine Linux Pine Linux. Alpine Linux Pine Linux is an operating system unto itself, and Pine’s Alpine fork is another free component of a fully functioning Alpine Linux Pine Linux system.

[-] juipeltje@lemmy.world 24 points 2 weeks ago

I love that alternative copypasta where the alpine user corrects the gnu/linux guy and he just fucking dies.

[-] turbowafflz@lemmy.world 13 points 2 weeks ago

"I've womansplained him to death"

[-] grue@lemmy.world 15 points 2 weeks ago

And that's why Alpine should be considered harmful. Copyleft is important, folks! musl and BusyBox are just ways to facilitate even more enshittification, Tivoization, and other corporate abuse than the GPLv2 kernel already does by itself.

[-] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 13 points 2 weeks ago

alpine is technically cool with how lightweight it is but it being non gnu is a big bummer really

[-] orsetto@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 weeks ago

I understand what argument could be made against musl, which is licensed under MIT, but what's wrong with GPLv2?

I remember Torvald saying something about not wanting to change the kernel's license to GPLv3, but I've never understood the differences

[-] grue@lemmy.world 33 points 2 weeks ago

GPLv3 is resistant to Tivoization. GPLv2 is not.

TL;DR: "Tivoization" means giving you the source code for the firmware of a particular device, but using DRM to prevent you from actually being able to make changes and run that modified code on the device.

Considering that the entire Free Software movement started because Xerox wouldn't let RMS improve the MIT AI Lab's laser printer, you should be able to see how DRM clearly runs counter to everything the GPL is trying to accomplish.

[-] ubergeek77@lemmy.ubergeek77.chat 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I am not up to date on all these license debates, but don't you think equating Alpine Linux to "locked down DRM" is just a bit of a logical reach?

Alpine and its components are fully open source, you can make whatever changes you want to them. I am not seeing the argument here.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 2 weeks ago

Alpine and its components are fully open source, you can make whatever changes you want to them.

Who is "you?" That's the important question.

There's always this big debate about whether GPL or BSD licensing provides "more freedom," but that's the wrong way to look at it. The correct way to look at it is that copyleft licenses provide freedom for end users by prohibiting developers from obstructing their freedom, while permissive licenses provide freedom for developers by permitting them to restrict access to the code for downstream users.

Using permissive licenses in Alpine doesn't make Alpine itself not "fully open source," but it does mean that Alpine helps facilitate non-Free downstream uses. In other words, somebody could take Alpine, customize it for a device, and then sell that device to the public without making any code available except for a kernel that they wouldn't even be able to use on said device because of DRM. I'm not okay with that.

[-] ubergeek77@lemmy.ubergeek77.chat 3 points 2 weeks ago

Ah I see, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining, I learned something from your comment and the other one.

[-] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Their statement is that Alpine is designed such that it is friendlier to corporations who want to lock down their devices and prevent you from modifying them.

You cannot use coreutils and have a DRM locked down device.

You can use Alpine w/ musl + busybox and make a DRM locked down device

Alpine's licensing favors large corporation's rights in preventing the user from modifying their device

Operating systems using coreutils favor the end user's rights

[-] unhrpetby@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

... Alpine is designed to be friendly to corporations who want to lock down their devices and prevent you from modifying them.

"Designed to" assumes intent. Alpine is absolutely designed to be Small, Simple, and Secure. Using busybox instead of the GNU coreutils is a means to this end. Using musl instead of glibc is a means to this end.

On the about page they list why they use these tools. The licensing is not listed at all.

[-] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

Fixed, thanks

[-] vivendi@programming.dev 10 points 2 weeks ago

Based and GNU pilled

This is why I license my work under GPLv3+ (not going to link my codeberg/GH because I'm not fucking stupid)

[-] jlh@lemmy.jlh.name 5 points 2 weeks ago

Meanwhile, Ubuntu is switching to uutils

[-] starbrite@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 weeks ago

I agree with copyleft and the fsf's core ideas, but also understand some people just don't like gnu, due to just not wanting to call it "gnu/linux" and stallman being kind of weird

[-] renzev@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

Huh, good point, I never stopped to consider what licenses are behind Alpine.

I agree with your point that pushover licenses should not be the way forward (I personally license all of my major projects with GPLv3 only), but I'll still keep using alpine because I like it from a technical standpoint.

[-] HStone32@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago

Alpine should be considered harmful

that's a rather anti-liberal sentiment coming from what one would assume to be a mostly pro-liberal open source community.

[-] QuazarOmega@lemy.lol 14 points 2 weeks ago

I love that you went through the effort of editing Stallman in and the text on the back, hope you've done the honors in GIMP (Great Intellectual Meme Picture)

[-] renzev@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah, of course! Kind of goes against the point of the meme but oh well.

[-] driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br 1 points 2 weeks ago

Actually, GIMP is for Green Is My Pepper.

[-] HStone32@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

was Stallman really the author of that copypasta? I mean it's funny to pretend he did, but does anyone know for sure?

[-] Naz@sh.itjust.works 10 points 2 weeks ago

No, it was a user on the FreeNode IRC in #Linux, not Stallman

[-] ShadowGlider@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 weeks ago

No, but a lot of the copypasta is paraphrasing him.

[-] dysprosium@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 weeks ago

Well, you'd still be using Linux

[-] lena@gregtech.eu 4 points 2 weeks ago

Not GNU tho

[-] dysprosium@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago

Not mentioning GNU doesn't mean you're not using GNU

[-] VitabytesDev@feddit.nl 3 points 2 weeks ago

[-] MissingInteger@lemm.ee 2 points 2 weeks ago

Here is the original comment.

Full comment in text form

"I use Linux as my operating system," I state proudly to the unkempt, bearded man. He swivels around in his desk chair with a devilish gleam in his eyes, ready to mansplain with extreme precision. "Actually", he says with a grin, "Linux is just the kernel. You use GNU+Linux!' I don't miss a beat and reply with a smirk, "I use Alpine, a distro that doesn't include the GNU Coreutils, or any other GNU code. It's Linux, but it's not GNU+Linux."

The smile quickly drops from the man's face. His body begins convulsing and he foams at the mouth and drops to the floor with a sickly thud. As he writhes around he screams "I-IT WAS COMPILED WITH GCC! THAT MEANS IT'S STILL GNU!" Coolly, I reply "If windows were compiled with GCC, would that make it GNU?" I interrupt his response with "-and work is being made on the kernel to make it more compiler-agnostic. Even if you were correct, you won't be for long."

With a sickly wheeze, the last of the man's life is ejected from his body. He lies on the floor, cold and limp. I've womansplained him to death.

[-] HStone32@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago

There is linux without gnu. Is there gnu without linux? sure, but I don't know anyone who uses hurd.

[-] jagungal@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

You could say you've never hurd of someone using it

this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2025
287 points (97.7% liked)

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