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I guess I've always been confused by the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Physics and the fact that it's taken seriously. Like is there any proof at all that universes outside of our own exist?

I admit that I might be dumb, but, how does one look at atoms and say "My God! There must be many worlds than just our one?"

I just never understood how Many Worlds Interpretation was valid, with my, admittedly limited understanding, it just seemed to be a wild guess no more strange than a lot things we consider too outlandish to humor.

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[-] voracitude@lemmy.world 41 points 1 week ago

There isn't any "proof"; in fact, Many Worlds is what's called "unfalsifiable", which means we don't have a way through the scientific method to show Many Worlds to be false.

Also, it's not really

My God! There must be many worlds than just our one?

But more

There are moments in time where one path is taken and not another... but what if all paths are taken, somewhere?

It's not meant to be a valid theory, it's just a possible outcome of having a spacetime continuum; because it's not falsifiable though, it's not worth pursuing right now, only worth keeping in mind in case we come across new evidence to evaluate.

[-] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 week ago

Many Worlds is what’s called “unfalsifiable”, which means we don’t have a way through the scientific method to show Many Worlds to be false.

That's not actually true

For one thing, any experiment which demonstrated objective collapse (which aren't just possible in theory, they've actually been performed) would falsify MW.

[-] voracitude@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

I'm aware of the double slit experiment and its variations, but I probably do misunderstand Many Worlds to at least some degree; how does wave collapse prove Many Worlds to be false?

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[-] wuphysics87@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

Thank you for making the point so cleanly. I was about to piss a lot of people off

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[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 week ago

If you want to know why it's taken seriously:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kTXTPe3wahc

Tl;dr: you need to actually understand the physics at play that lead to serious consideration of the many worlds theory. It's not the pop-sci it gets painted as. It's much more specific.

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[-] magic_lobster_party@fedia.io 9 points 1 week ago

Multiverse and many worlds interpretation are two different things.

The idea of multiverse is that there are many other universes existing in parallel with ours. Either the universes are created through different big bangs, or maybe the universe is constantly splitting into many other universes. This is mostly science fiction.

MWI is one of many competing ideas to help coming to terms with the counterintuitive nature of quantum physics. A particle can be in many places at once when not observed. Once it’s observed, it chooses to stick in one place. MWI is one interpretation of why this is happening.

[-] reliv3@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

I'm pretty sure the multiverse theory is baked into the big bang theory and cosmological theories, so I wouldn't necessarily call it mostly science fiction.

Cosmological hypotheses suggest universes with different initial conditions are possible (different space-time geometries, different elementary particle masses, etc.). The big bang theory suggests multiple universes (not just ours) with different initial conditions were formed due to eternal inflation. As the multiverse continues to undergo this eternal inflation, there forms pockets where the inflation has ended and is "hospitable". Our observable universe would be an example of such pockets, but since inflation is eternal, there should be many of these pockets.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/taming-the-multiverse-stephen-hawkings-final-theory-about-the-big-bang

[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Two points:

  • The MWI/Everett interpetation is the simplest interpretation of quantum mechanics—other interpretations have to add additional assumptions to prevent it from happening.

  • The most common version of the MWI is actually an interpretation of an interpretation (i.e., Bryce deWitt’s reinterpretation of Hugh Everett's 1957 thesis), but many of those who subscribe to deWitt’s interpretation (including deWitt himself) don’t seem to grasp how it differs from Everett’s. Everett’s thesis makes no explicit reference to multiple worlds—just a single wave function that can be measured on multiple bases that produce multiple versions of each observer, each of which perceives a different version of the universe. For Everett, the wave function was ontologically prior to the material world, so his universal wave function was a complete explanation as-is. But for deWitt (and for most people), the material world is ontologically prior, while the wave function is just a tool for describing its behavior. So by their reasoning, those multiple perceived worlds must all really exist as parts of the wave function in some sense.

[-] Wigners_friend@piefed.social 1 points 1 week ago

If we sufficiently torture the word "simplest".

[-] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

Or, you know, use it accurately.

[-] SmoothOperator@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

MWI is not simpler than other interpretations. It's more purely mathematical as this simpler if you ignore experimental physics, yes. But if you consider physics an empirical science, the interpretation has to get pretty complicated to explain why all outcomes of an experiment happen, but only one is ever observed.

It doesn't require fewer assumptions or ad hoc collapse mechanisms, it just moves those to a place where they're harder to see.

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[-] SmoothOperator@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I admit that I might be dumb, but, how does one look at atoms and say "My God! There must be many worlds than just our one?"

Well, we looked at atoms and found out that the only meaningful way to describe them is with quantum mechanics. This is the most precise and possibly best tested physical theory ever developed. And it says that if an atom starts out in state A, it will then naturally evolve into a state A+B.

Now, A and B are mutually exclusive. So what does that mean? One reasonable way to view it is that it is indeed physically in both states A and B as the theory says. That's ultimately what leads to the many worlds interpretation. The atom is both in state A and state B, and the universe accepts both of the different trajectories of reality that leads to.

This view is equivalent to a number of other ways of view things, all of which lead to the same prediction of physical behaviour for now, so essentially you can just pick your favourite.

[-] palordrolap@fedia.io 3 points 1 week ago

[H]ow does one look at atoms and say "My God! There must be many worlds than just our one?"

Electrons. You've seen the model of the atom, right? Cluster of balls in the middle (protons and neutrons) and the electrons are little balls that whizz around like little planets around a Sun?

That model is a simplification of the truth. It turns out that it is impossible to pin down where an electron is and also know what it is doing. And if you know what it's doing (you can see its effects), you'll have no idea where it is.

Where they are has to be measured by probability. "It's bound to this nucleus / taking part in a chemical bond so it's likely to be in this vicinity", is about as close as you can get.

There is literally nothing excluding that electron from temporarily being a billion miles away. That's astronomically unlikely, but it's not impossible.

And by some measurement methods, when you do try to pinpoint where the electron is, it can appear to be in multiple places at once.

This can be interpreted as bleed-through from nearby quantum realms, maybe even other universes, where the electron is in one place per nearby universe. One of those places is ours, but we cannot tell which. And by the time we've made any kind of determination, the electron has moved. They never stop.

Photons - particles of light - also do this. All subatomic particles do this.

The more subatomic particles you have in some combined state (as an atomic nucleus, or even a molecule), the lower the probability is that that bound state can be in multiple places at once, but again, it is not ruled out.

But it does mean that the more bound particles an object is made from, the more definite its position appears to be, which is what we're used to at our human-sized scale.

[-] madcaesar@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago

I'm trying to follow, how can an electron be a billion miles away? Aren't the attractive forces keeping the atom together?

[-] CummandoX@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

In quantum physics the position of an electron is defined by a wave function. This wave function or rather it's square modulus is the probability distribution of the position of the electron. In more simple terms, the electron doesn't have a precise position but rather a high probability to be somewhere.

One example of an electron being able to be billion miles away is the following: Think of a probability in the shape of a bell. Where the center of the bell has a value between 0 and 1 and to each side the function tends to 0. The likeliest region for the electron to be is the center of the bell, but since the function never takes the value 0, it is not impossible for the electron to be a billion miles away.

If you apply a force to the electron, like an electrical field, you will simply shift and modulate the probability distribution moving the maximum probability towards the positive side of the electrical field. But the electron being in the place you expect it to be is still nothing but a very likely event. The event of the electron being a billion miles away is still of probability not 0.

[-] palordrolap@fedia.io 0 points 1 week ago

Draw a graph by flipping a coin. Start at (0,0). Assume a fair coin and fair flips. Move one unit right each time, but go up (+1) for heads and down (-1) for tails. The line drawn can go arbitrarily far vertically from 0, but the average vertical position necessarily remains 0.

The average position of an electron is slightly more nebulous than the line x=0, and depends on what, if anything, the electron bound to, but for each state an electron can be in there is a group, or a locus, of possible positions that represent that bound state and the whole locus is a mean of sorts. An electron can go on a journey wherever as long as it continues to regress to that locus.

And in the exceptionally rare instance where a subatomic particle goes on an indefinite journey, we call that quantum tunnelling.

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[-] Coopr8@kbin.earth 3 points 1 week ago

altr

https://arxiv.org/abs/1301.1069

Effectively there is no current consensus on the issue, though Many Worlds and String Theory are widely regarded outside their adherents as non-falsifiable and therefore not legitimate theories.

Essentially the proponents of the theory have created beautiful math that fit their view, but absolutely nothing in the real world that can show that it is a more valid theory than any of the other theories which have equally elegant math to back them.

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[-] wuphysics87@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 week ago

None. There is absolutely no proof of many worlds or the multiverse. RE the god of the gaps. It's much more interesting to do physics rather than speculate about what falls outside the purview of the scientific method.

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[-] davidgro@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

This was mentioned (not fully, but enough to get some of the ideas) recently in an episode of PBS Space Time

As far as MWI itself, my understanding is that it comes from simply taking the same math that works for atoms (as you say) and applying it to everything - the observers of a quantum system, the earth, the whole universe. I think it really comes down to the question: If Everything is a wave function, what would it look like from the inside? And MWI pops out of trying to answer that.

And the other interpretations of quantum mechanics don't even seem better to me, requiring arbitrary conditions for a state to collapse to a single value for example. That feels to me like an entity of the type Occam meant.

[-] SheeEttin@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 week ago

I'm not sure that there is proof. But there are quantum effects like wave function collapse, what a wave or particle seems to exist in multiple ways until measured.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

That's kind of out dated...

Like, physics has been fucking crazy the past couple years.

It looks more like the right answer is "both" these days.

Like, the OG double slit experiment was 1801, we just did a new using individuals atoms as slits and individual photons, with measurements taking only a millionith of a second.

Old experiments just didn't have the mechanisms for further testing.

It's like that time we "proved" that a body takes action before the brain sends instructions, and really we're just rationalizing things the body does autonomously... Which, was really fucking huge.

Then we realized that we just didn't have the tech to measure it, and while the brain will rationalize actions, that's not what's happening 24/7.

The problem is there's constantly new discoveries with this shit, but most people just stick with a simplified version they learned in science class.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

None.

It is, however, actually simpler than other theories, in that if you just let quantum mechanics do it's thing without extra (unknown) parts to limit it, it produces many worlds. So, by Occam's razor...

Specifically:Quantum systems are in more than one classical state at a time, unavoidably. You can see this in the double slit experiment. Even if you send a single particle at a time through the slits, it passes through both and creates the interference pattern. (There's also ways to formally prove that making quantum mechanics normal would require fate, or faster-than-light trickery which would actually be worse than fate)

Early physicists were very confused by this. The Schrodinger's cat was used as a thought experiment meant to illustrate how that's absurd, and it was decided there must be something that causes quantum states to "collapse" to one state before they can cause any trouble.

That's not definitely wrong, and it's still debated in versions by modern theorists, but it turned out not to be necessary. The reason for that is that if a part of a quantum system becomes entangled with something outside of it, the interference will no longer happen, and it becomes indistinguishable from multiple slightly different copies of the same system.

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[-] MysteriousSophon21@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

Many Worlds isn't taken seriously because there's "proof" of other universes - it's taken seriously because it's actually the simplest explanation mathematically. The equations of quantum mechanics naturally lead to superpositions (particles existing in multiple states). MWI just says "what if we don't add extra rules to make those superpositions collapse?" It's like if you have a math equation that gives you 5 answers, and instead of creating a complicated rule to pick just one answer, you just accept all 5. Thats why physisists consider it - parsimony.

[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago
[-] thericofactor@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago
[-] individual@toast.ooo 1 points 1 week ago
[-] RBWells@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

I don't understand how it's any more outlandish than thinking that we can be aware of everything that exists, or that everything exists in a straight line through time, never branching. Maybe it's a lack of understanding on my part, but it seems the sum total of what we have discovered through science, or even through imagination, only illuminates a very small subset of reality. We can only measure with the instruments we can imagine and build, and with our own limited senses. So I wouldn't jump to believe, nor to label unbelievable.

[-] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

If you want to go into depth on this, I recommend you look up Sean Carrol talking about the subject - or read his book Something Deeply Hidden, if you're up for it - he's one of the best science communicators I've heard and a strong proponent of many worlds.

But to try to summarize it in very short: the "multiversal" behavior is already baked into quantum mechanics - a particle can be in two places at once, as in the double slit experiment - just at a very small scale. Traditional quantum physics postulates that there's some mechanism by which this behavior is cut off before it reaches the macroscopic scale (wave function collapse). Many Worlds just asks "Do we actually need this postulate? What would it look like if we didn't have it?" And the answer is, it would look like the universe we experience, just with a multiverse along side it.

[-] QueenHawlSera@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago

Doesn't Carrol have a reputation for being rather crass or am I thinking of someone else?

[-] WolfLink@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 week ago

The “many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics” is loosely that when you do a quantum coin flip, the universe splits into two universes, one for each result.

The reason for this thought is when you work with quantum mechanics, your system has a state that evolves smoothly, but if you “measure” it, the state suddenly snaps to (a random) one of the possible measurement values (when the coin isn’t being observed, it smoothly evolves, but once you measure it, it suddenly takes on a random value). However, if you expand your quantum description of the system to include your measurement device as well as the quantum “coin”, that sudden “snapping” goes away. Instead your whole system smoothly evolves, and it evolves into a “superposition” of the shared state of the state of the overall system in each of the possible measurement outcomes.

Extending this idea, it would seem that whenever you could describe a situation that acts like a “quantum coin flip”, both results happen, and the universe “splits”.

I really want to emphasize that the practical meaning of these “other worlds” is just that things are a lot “fuzzier” when you zoom in than classical statistics would suggest. Not that there’s another universe where you stayed with your ex or took a different career path or whatever.

Also this is an “interpretation” of quantum mechanics for good reason. It doesn’t really have any physical implications. In particular, it’s not possible to go “interact with” those “other universes”.

Most importantly, there are other “interpretations” of quantum mechanics, like that quantum mechanics is really a rethinking of statistics not of physics.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

You're asking a couple different questions at once...

But basically assume that there are multiple (maybe infinite) big bangs, and each time that happens, the resulting universe has its own laws of physics. We wouldn't see slight changes, things would be drastically different, but since they keep popping up. Eventually we'll see every permeation happen. Including identical everything to ours, but just one random difference that created the TV version of alternate realities.

You might think entropy prevents that, but "entropy can't be reversed" is less a fact and more "the simplified version laypeople are told in science class".

And a different option would be that rather than one straight line of time, any possible choice can branch and create its own timeline that can then branch, etc.

And that might seem like we're "stuck" but nothing in physics even requires one way direction of time. The only reason we need to perceive it in only that way, is without linear time consciousness couldn't happen. Without cause and effect, consciousness can't exist

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