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submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by QueenHawlSera@sh.itjust.works to c/askscience@lemmy.world

Physicalism or materialism. The idea that everything there is arises from physical matter. If true would mean there is no God or Free Will, no immortal soul either.

Seems to be what most of academia bases their world view on and the frame work in which most Science is done.

Often challenged by Dualism and Idealism but only by a loud fringe minority.

I've heard pan-psychicism is proving quite the challenge, but I hear that from people who believe crystals can cure autism

I hear that "Oh actually the science is moving away from materialism" as well, but that seems to be more crystal talk as well.

So lemme ask science instead of google.

Any reason to doubt physicalism? Is there anything in science that says "Huh well that seems to not have any basis in the physical at all and yet it exists"

Edit: I have heard of the Essentia Foundation and Bernado Kastrup but since it's endorsed by Deepak Chopra I'm not sure I can trust it

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[-] xxce2AAb@feddit.dk 21 points 1 week ago

that seems to not have any basis in the physical at all and yet it exists

If it has no basis in physical reality, how would you detect, measure or quantify it? On what basis would you prove its existence?

[-] electric_nan@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

Tune your consciousness into the vibrations. Duh.

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[-] e0qdk@reddthat.com 13 points 1 week ago

Assuming that the universe actually exists outside ourselves and that our perceptions can be explained by some set of rules (that we call "physics") seem like necessary axioms to get anywhere in science. You could reject those assumptions, but then I don't see much of a compelling reason to accept anything beyond solipsism if you don't believe in reality.

That said, I'm not sure that physics will ever be able to provide a good, complete explanation of qualia.

[-] onlinepersona@programming.dev 3 points 1 week ago

Of course it can. We are biological machines. Not every machine is perfect copy of another. Differences in the organs that perceive the world will lead to subjective experiences. There's no "mystery".

[-] e0qdk@reddthat.com 1 points 1 week ago

Does an LLM have subjective experience? The characters in The Sims -- or the game itself? A thermostat? An ant colony, collectively -- separate from its individual ants? The entire country of, say, Honduras, collectively? A corporation? A database? Bacteria? A human skin cell? A tumor, independent of its host? A traffic jam? Grains of sand in an hour glass? A tree? A flea? A dog?

Why is my perception of the color red the way that it is? You can swap the red and blue components of an image around and things are just as recognizable, but the experience of it is noticeably different... Why does red look like red instead of red and blue being the other way around in my subjective experience? Is your experience of red the same as mine, or are red and blue swapped for you relative to my perception of them? We know from people with color blindness that not everyone experiences the color red the same way, but how can you probe whether the perception of the color wheel is rotated by, say, 90 degrees in hue between two people with otherwise compatible perception of color?

Why don't I experience heat on my skin the same way that I experience vision? Or touch, for that matter? People with synesthesia can have radically different subjective experience; perhaps we'll uncover some answers from probing that -- since people can talk to us -- but how can we ever probe the similarities and differences in the experience that bats and dolphins may have of echolocation? If bats and dolphins could talk to each other, would their differences in the experience of echolocation be like red-green color blindness, or like vision and touch?

There probably are answers to all those questions, but given that subjective experience can only be experienced by the subject, how would you test for it? Even if there are answers, I'm not sure if it's possible for us to know them from our point of view in the universe.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 week ago

What about biology? What if one day a neurologist finds the brain part that creates the illusion you're not just a brain?

[-] flying_sheep@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

I never understood the point of “qualia” and “p-zombies”. To act exactly as a human does, you need the internal voice that is among your motivating factors to act like you do.

[-] TheMetaleek@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 week ago

So the thing is, like other commenters have said, you're asking metaphysics things through the prism of science, which does not work because by nature, science uses the (mostly) objective scientific method, while metaphysics is based on subjective assessments.

You have to separate the physical, material universe as being in the domain of what can be known, from the rest, which can not be, and never will. This does not mean it doesn't exist, just that it can never be studied or proved in any way, so anyone can believe what they wish about it without leaving rationality (as long as the belief does not imply things concerning the material universe)

[-] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

We do not have enough evidence to conclude that subjective experience will never be objectively measurable, sufficiently advanced neuroscience absolutely could reach a point where every aspect of human experience could be measured observed and compared. We almost certainly won't live to see it though.

[-] notsosure@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 week ago

Not sure what you are talking about. Science isn’t philosophy or religion, you can’t make choices what’s true or isn’t. A fact is a fact.

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[-] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 week ago

"Has anyone found a viable alternative to falsifiable hypotheses?"

[-] verdi@feddit.org 4 points 1 week ago

No reason to doubt it.

[-] WatDabney@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 week ago

Any reason to doubt physicalism?

Describe "doubt" in purely physical terms.

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[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Any reason to doubt physicalism? Is there anything in science that says “Huh well that seems to not have any basis in the physical at all and yet it exists”

If it had no basis in the physical, then what would it mean to say that it "exists?" How you define "existence" is a very big philosophical question. Excuse me while I nerd the fuck out about something.

Physics tells us that the observable universe is 93 billion light years in diameter. However, we can sometimes observe objects leaving the observable universe. This is because of complicated physics reasons:

Physical space is expanding with time. Everything is getting farther apart from everything else, and the more distance there is between two points, the faster the space in between them is expanding. At a sufficiently large distance, the rate at which the distance between the two points is increasing, is faster than the speed of light. Neither point is actually moving faster than the speed of light, it's only the space between them that is expanding. This might be hard to understand, but think of it as if you drew two dots on a balloon and then inflated it.

Once an object gets far enough away from us that the space between is expanding faster than the speed of light, it becomes impossible for us to make any further observations about that thing. This is actually what defines the bounds of "the observable universe."

So, what happens to objects that leave the observable universe? Strictly speaking, it's impossible to say. Intuitively, we would expect that they're still there doing their thing and obeying the same physical laws as when we could observe them. But, if you told me that the stars simply vanish, or that they magically transform into butterflies as soon as they leave, there's no evidence that anyone could ever produce that would falsify that belief, because, by definition, there is no way to observe what happens outside of the observable universe. If we are defining what exists based on what is physically observable, then it follows that things outside the observable universe do not exist, even if it really seems like they should.

My conclusion from this line of thought is that existence is a relational property. I am not prepared to reject the idea that a thing has to be in some way observable in order to exist, but in that case, nothing can exist in isolation. Because for a thing to be observable means that there must exist a being which could observe it. This could be said to contradict physicalism, because physicalism would say that the material world exists regardless of our senses. I would say that the physical world only exists so long as there are beings capable of sensing it, and, should all sentient beings ever become extinct, the physical world would no longer exist in any meaningful sense.

[-] VoterFrog@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

To be clear, the observable universe is centered on Earth (technically, on you). For a being that is closer to the object that leaves your observable universe before it leaves theirs. It can still be observed by them. There is no objective point at which something becomes unobservable by the expansion of space.

Excepting maybe the big rip.

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[-] JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 points 1 week ago

It doesn't mean that there's no soul, god, or after life, just none that we can prove in any meaningful way.

[-] QueenHawlSera@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago

But we cannot believe anything without evidence

[-] Legianus@programming.dev 2 points 1 week ago

But neither can you discredit anything without evidence. The basis of science is falsifiability. That is, we have to be able to prove it wrong.

[-] Tattorack@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

Hitchen's Razor says otherwise.

[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I think the framing of questions like this assumes that there are certain “physical” things that follow one intrinsic set of laws, and certain other things that follow a fundamentally different, incommensurate set of laws.

But we don’t actually have direct knowledge of any intrinsic laws, physical or otherwise—the best we have are a set of purely provisional laws we’ve made up and regularly revise on the basis of cumulative evidence. And our method for revising these provisional laws requires that any new evidence that contradicts them, invalidates them—provisional laws must apply to everything without exception. If we give ourselves the out that contradictory evidence can be explained by “non-physical” causes, we can never invalidate anything nor revise our understanding. So dualistic models are inherently unscientific—not because they’re wrong, but because starting with such assumptions is incompatible with the scientific method.

[-] Tollana1234567@lemmy.today 2 points 1 week ago

this seems more like metaphysics, or philosophy than actual science, this would be more appropiate in that discussion. you odnt want to mix religion into science.

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[-] lemming@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago

It also depends how you define physical matter.

If it's something you cam touch, then there definitely is, starting with neutrinos.

If you mean particles we know about, can describe and sort of understand, then there's dark matter, which is probably particles we don't know yet, but have several candidates we didn't manage to confirm or disprove yet. They can only interact by gravitational (and perhaps weak?) force.

If you mean something we know at least something solid about, there's dark energy, which isn't absolutely 100% certain that it exists, but is widely accepted.

If you mean something physics doesn't detect and try to explain, then obviously not.

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[-] UNY0N@lemmy.wtf 1 points 1 week ago

I think this makes a lot of sense:

https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY

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this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2025
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